So, you are a straightforward TAG (not some random, average 1/2 player) PFR w/ AK (let's give you a big hand). SB, another TAG reg, donks the flop. Do you raise? Do you call?

Let's say you call. Now, SB bets big into you again -- just the right amount for a bet/bet/shove. Are alarm bells going off, or are you just happy to stack of with trips because, hey, you've got trips?

Let's say you raise and SB calls/re-raises -- are you at all concerned, or do you just gii because, hey, you've got trips?

Granted, maybe the unknown will spew with trip Aces -- and just happens to have one. I hope so.

I hope someone answers this: Are any of you TAG players betting this flop from SB into three players, including the PFR and an unknown, with less than an A?

I didn't necessarily think that this point was germane to the lead/check decision, but Java does bring up a point or two that I think bears some discussion.

V1 and V3 are two of the players at the table that have played with Hero several times before. If they are observant enough, they may be of the impression that Hero plays LAG overall. Hero fluctuates between loose/tight PF depending on table dynamics, but is generally quite aggressive post. In THIS session (since many typical LLSNL villains go only off what they remember recently, IMO), Hero should appear TAG thus far, but V1/V3 may have other thoughts.

In a very multi-way pot I'm playing straightfowardly. I'm also assuming an ace is never folding for at least one street. Moreover, OP has stated there is a decent chance this gets checked through because "lol i has teh trup aces i SLOWPLAYZ". So betting here is ideal.

SPR is just under 6, which means it will be difficult to play for stacks over two streets, so we can't really risk the flop checking thru. Someone with an A could easily let the flop check thru, slowplay call the turn, and then by the river get MUBSy enough to realize they only have a bluff catcher and just call a river bet. No other hand is going to put much more money in (unless a 2 outer hits), and bluffs will probably only lose one street of betting before giving up.

So I'd simply attempt to get paid off by Ax and donk. I'd go small like $25 and then go from there.

GcluelessNLnoobG

This changes things a bit. If V1 and V3 might think you are LAG, donk away. I was going by the original TAG description.

Just so I'm clear, Java, I really think only V3 might put any stock into a TAG/LAG image read. And I'm not clear how much he will value that read - he certainly doesn't see me as a maniac, and I believe he respects my play.

V1, as I stated in the OP, is a Level 1 thinker. He probably knows whether I play loose or tight, but that is never going to sway his decision based on the two cards he's holding.

Ok, I'm going to move the hand along a little. General consensus seems to be lead the flop, with some consideration to c/c and donk turns.

Flop ($60) 7 A A

YAHTZEE! Hero leads $40. V1 calls - I have a hard time putting his range as anything other than precisely Ax. V2 folds. V3 thinks for about 10 seconds, then raises to $100.
I'm ranging V3 on AQ/AK/AA, with the very very slight possibility of A7s.

Action on Hero, who thinks about the best way to get the most out of the two villains combined, and....

Call flop/lead turn. Don't want V1 to fold, give him chance to re-raise with AK/AQ too.

First my instinct was to say shove, because of your stacks size and the odds you are going to offer V3, 250 into 490, he will call with any A above AT, and there is a chance that V2 gets in and the odds even get better.

The more I write and think, the more I prefer calling, but there are so many turn cards that make it akward for us, T-K, A. I think I would advocate calling if V1 was aggro or there was any more definitive indication that V1 has an A or would only call with an A there. If we call, V1shoves, V3 calls, and we shove, that of course would be optimal. You said V1 is nitty and a nitty TAG should never call your donk without an A, therefore I only call V3 bet, let V2 shove, V3 shove or call, and I then overshove/call.

When you lead this flop the raise is actually what you wanted the least. Now you have to call and ride out the risk of something hitting a higher boat. With no draws possible a reraise on the flop is telling everybody you have AK+, even AQ has a pretty easy fold at that point.

Given your description V1 will probably call with his AX. Then you can shove safe turn cards and hope one of these two can't get away from AK.

Like leading flop here given our read on V3. If we were more confident that he'd c-bet often here, especially when he has Ax, then I don't mind a c/c, lead turn line.

As played, flatting vs. V3's raise and leading turn seems to be the best way to get max value against both villains. Looks like pot will be $360 going to the turn and you'll have $235 so turn will be a shove.

If V1 was a thinking player, he is folding no matter what you do unless he has A7 (maybe AK) and thinks V3 will make that min raise with air expecting you both to fold.

Think about it from V1's perspective:
I limp with AQ, V2 limps behind, V3 raises, BB calls, I call, limper calls

AA7
BB bets about the pot, I call, limper folds, PFR does a minraise, SB calls.

At this point, I am holding 3rd nuts and yet two other players are betting at this board.
I should range V3 on AK (maybe) AQ (maybe) A7 or 77 given that raise but most likely AK or 77.
SB CALLED, so if I have the missing A and V3 has AK/AQ, then SB must have 77 (he isn't stupid or bad and certainly isn't calling the raise without a made hand given the board)
OR
V3 has 77 which means SB has the missing Ace and he's calling so I am beat.

But you said V1 was a level 1 player, he won't think about what you have at all given the action. In that case, you should be SHOVING! He's a level 1 thinker, he has THREE ACES!!!! OMG that is like the nuts. He won't even consider that you have 77.

And V3 should then see you shoving with the other A and if he has AK or AQ, he is probably calling because you should be shoving with any A and while V1 should only be calling with at least an A, its a massive pot and V1 could be calling with less or you could be trying to buy it.

I wouldn't shove turn since V1 will be stuck in the middle and might fold a hand like AT/AJ with action behind. I'd probably lead real small, like $85. Don't hate an open shove on turn though.

btw - given that V3 will check behind with monsters, you should definitely lead the flop.

I agree with most of what you said Mr. Curious, although I do think that even though V1 is a Level 1 thinker, even he might talk himself into a fold with AT/AJ, maybe even AQ, if I shove over V3's raise. V1 is not a drooler, and even Level 1 thinkers can reassess their hand strength if they see bet/raise/shove in front of them.

At this point, I want to call to keep V1 in, but really sick to see a T-K on the turn against both of them -- it might slow them down, too. Since we already donked, got a call and a raise, it might be best to just gii now and hope they can't fold. They might even call if they put you on A7 (or even 77) hoping to hit their kicker.

If I just call, which is probably what I do, I'm torn between leading turn ($100?) and check/calling (shoving).

I like the flop donk (I'd size smaller but doesn't matter much), and now I'd just call the flop raise. We don't want to blow out a weak A in V1 which a shove could do.

After that, the gig is up, and I'd open shove the turn, which will enable V1 to call before V3 does.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just shoving turn probably is best.

SwolyswoND, does a K or Q turn concern you? J or T?

Absolutely a K turn would concern me greatly. I don't particularly want to see a Q or J, either. But I don't think we can ever fold so does the scare card scenario really impact our decision-making at all?

Just debating between gii now (on flop) when nobody (us or them) is "concerned" with the turn card and calling to keep V1 in. I guess my point is if they (at least V3) are not folding to a shove on the turn, why would they fold to a shove now?

8, 9, T, J, Q, K = 6 cards we hate
6, 5, 4, 3, 2 = 5 cards we kinda don't hate
A = 1 card we stand up, take a dump on the table, and just walk away

No matter what comes on the turn, we may be putting our money in with the worst of it unless we think we can narrow their ranges to ONLY T, J, Q, K

V's have 3 outs max each assuming they don't have the unlikely AA/A7, so I'm not sweatin that one of them will find one of those outs on the turn If they do, well sometimes you gotta get coolered. The remaining ace would kill your hand anyway so don't have to worry about that on turn.

I guess I just am not sure how the "hate/scare" cards thing works in here. V1 could have literally any Ax, so we don't know what a card we hate to see is for him. V3 should have basically only AQ/AK here. We're dodging at the max 6 combined outs for the Vs.

We wouldn't let 6 potential "scare" cards alter the most profitable value line in a multiway pot in other scenarios, would we? I'm not necessarily saying shove is wrong (hence why I'm here asking), but I don't think the scare card point is an issue. It's not like we're going to c/f if a K comes on the turn.

I was just wondering if they are calling a shove on the turn anyway, will they call an all in now? Is it better to just shove flop? They might be "concerned" with certain turn cards, which might lead to a fold from V1 (or both).

What turn cards will cause them to fold? Unless you can range them at the top broadway cards, a T on the turn might make them fold to your push figuring you hit your boat. I think they are calling a flop shove if they are calling a turn bet