Hero is early 30's WG, been at the table two orbits or so. Likely has a neutral TAG image, been involved in two pots, both without showdown. He's a reg in this room, but only 2-3 others at the table know of his play. ($350)

V1 is MAWG, kind of nitty TAG. Level 1 thinker. ($315)

V2 is unknown MAWG. ($200)

V3 is about Hero's age, fairly straightforward TAG. Have never seen him bluff. Can get tricky with big hands (like checking top set being first to act as PFR) (covers)

OTTH

V1 limps UTG+2, V2 limps in MP, one other limper, V3 raises to $15 in CO. V3's range is likely 99+, ATs+, AJo+, other suited Broadways, maybe KJo/KQo. Hero in BB calls with 77. V1 calls, V2 calls, rest fold. 4 ways to the flop.

Flop ($60) 7 A A

YAHTZEE! Hero....?

You're not making anything unless someone has an ace so I lead out with a small bet. Maybe $35 or so.

$40/110/shove

Lead looks best but check and let V3 c-bet is OK. Normally I would say check is best but V3 seems too likely to check his big trips and somebody has to have AX when this goes 4 ways to the flop or your not making any money anyways.

I would go $40. The board is drawless so a pot sized bet would look out of place but AX isn't giving up to the first bet so no reason to go small either.

SPRs are 4-5 for everyone
While betting does build a pot, you're only getting called by Ax and even then, unless they hit their card, you may not be playing for stacks.

Checking, while not building as big a pot early, does allow someone with Ax to bet, someone with 7x to bet, PFR with XX to bet, or even if it is checked through, someone to make a pair or pick up a draw on the turn.

That said, leading out for a super small bet (like 20) potentially traps everyone between you and the PFR and he is raises and you call, possibly gets them to come along too.

I think it mainly depends on if you think PFR will raise a small bet by you.

Donking out is always so strong and will so often get folds on this flop. I might just check/call and if it checks through, just bet turn.

I understand why people want to donk, though. Nobody is folding an A yet, so might as well get what you can on all three streets.

I disagree. I would be more likely to put hero on something like 87 or 99 if he leads out. When someone donks into me as the preflop raiser, I raise them a lot of the time with nothing and they fold more than 75% of the time. I wouldnt do it here with 4 to the flop. Im just talking in general about donking into the preflop raiser. Rarely do people lead with their strong hands in my games.

Lead flop can be good,

we do not block Ax and there are ace heavy ranging in play here.

So, you think the average TAG player would donk into three players, including someone who raised pre and an unknown, with a 7 or small pair? I hope you are right.

I'm going to start donking all my huge hands if 2+2 players think I'm weak!

I definitely think you are going to get a call by an A if you donk flop, but nothing else. If it checks, pfr or someone might bet their pair, etc.

It is so interesting that in another hand, everyone was saying how strong a donk is on the flop. I think the donk bet works only if someone else has an A, but they are betting that anyway.

Suppose roles were reversed and OP was the PFR and held Ax.

what advice would you give?

Who cares how strong it is? Ax isn't folding trips, all other hands that aren't pocket pairs are drawing to a hand that can't pay off any large bets so you can't win a big pot when someone turns Jx or Qx/etc. Yout can't always semi-cooler someone, but when you have a chance, put some money in the damn pot.

Mr. Curious hits on an important point, IMO. What if any consideration do we give to our relative position to the PFR? Does that influence anyone's decision to donk or check?

Those that are advocating check, are you c/c or c/r? (I know Java wants to c/c so I'm not speaking to her here)

c/r is WAY stronger than a donk bet.

I would definitely be more likely to lead out if there are 1 or more players between me and the preflop raiser. I would be less likely to do it if the other players acted after the preflop raiser. You want to trap them between you and the preflop raiser.

Bet it out for 40$ on flop. V1/V2 will check to V3 frequently, which reduces your ability to get value from them when V3 checks back his whiffs (You also say he sometimes plays strong hands tricky). I want to make sure I play for stacks against anyone holding Ax, this is how I'm going to do it.

So, OP raises from SB with Ax and hits this flop? OP should c-bet then, because he was the pre-flop raiser. He should be c-betting with a lot of hands. There is a big difference between c-betting and donking.

BTW, I think donking is fine, but I think it gets paid only if someone holds an A, and I think they are betting the A anyway. However, if they don't have an A, they might bet a pp or some other hand trying to take the pot, but they are probably not calling a donk from SB. These are all TAG/nitty players with one unknown.

Java, you seem to be the one most advocating for a c/c. Is your plan to lead any turn card then (except an Ace)?

People love to check back their Ax on flop

Yes, because nobody is folding an A here. They might fold their pp, etc., now, but at least I got a bet out of them. Also, if it checks through, betting the turn looks more FOS -- or as if I have a 7 or some small pp, and I might get a call from worse than an A.

I realize I'm looking at this differently, but if the SB donked into me on this flop and I didn't have an A, I pretty much snap fold. I might call with JJ-KK to see the turn, but that's all you are getting. These are nitty/TAGs. Maybe we get lucky and the unknown ends up being a LAGy spewer!

As stated, donking is fine, but if everyone folds it sucks.

Yeah I don't want to influence the discussion too much, but I believe this is a very important point. Particularly given that we've seen V3 check top set before, and he is last to act here, I think the likelihood of the flop checking through is significant.

If everyone folds (because no one has an Ace), were we going to get any money out of them regardless? Given V3 description, do you think he bets TT-KK or air on this board four-ways?

Also, I think we can heavily discount V1/V2 having JJ-KK given preflop action.

Does it really suck that bad? If they don't have an ace, they aren't giving you any money anyway.

But they might bet their pair (or air). It's just unlikely that the first to act bets their pair or air into three other players, including the PFR, so if SB bets, they have to expect at least an A -- unless they don't think SB is a TAG. This is great if someone else has an A. I guess everyone just expects it to be so.

They might, though, because in position they can bet their pp, etc., or on the turn if it checks through flop, they might call with worse to see one more card thinking you could be trying to steal the pot.

Are any of you TAG players betting this flop from SB into three players, including the PFR and an unknown, with less than an A?

lol no. check/call flop donk turn is much much stronger IMO than leading flop.

Any ace is NEVER folding flop and will probably give us multiple streets of value.

40/110/shove like wj94 said.