All SPR is doing is boiling down a bunch of concepts of which I mention above.

Bottom line for me is simple: building bloated multiway pots OOP with the worse hand that is rarely going to hit with small stack sizes is a pretty meh idea, imo. Changing any of those conditions (the chances of a raise actually thinning the field, being in position, playing with bigger stacks, etc., most of which create a much bigger SPR instead of a play limiting handcuffing one) and then there's much more argument for raising.

GimoG

Where do you come up with this stuff? JTs is just simply profitable in EP, there's nothing to say otherwise, full stop?

Not saying for a second good players likely can't make this spot profitable. And I'd guess for most winning players it's probably a whatever case that has little affect either way on their bottom line. And for everyone else, barring amazing table conditions, my guess that folding is far away the best option (and not close).

GbutI'moutvoted,socarryonG

I think it is totally fair to open Js10s here.

I know if im in late position id be soooo tempted to squeeze tho with all that dead money out there so I would be cautious of that if you have good players in late position/if you will get 3 bet a lot.


If not then I think this is an okay open

As played I probably bet very small like 1/3 pot to set my own price. Reevaluate on turn/if raised

totally agree with that assessment. I don't feel like any queen would fold to less than a pot sized bet so a big bet is point less in my opinion. now were are in an awkward spot OOP.

I don't think we should barrel the 4 unless we pick up a flush draw

call it mathematical intuition, JTs can be limped very profitably from EP, so it's a play you should use before you muck this hand, which seems like lighting money on fire, if it's a profit to limp and ev zero to fold then which do you think is the standard strategy? I would raise most of the time but limping can't be a mistake and people should just ignore the advice of anyone saying a limp is a mistake because its probably a troll post

You keep saying your outvoted and many will disagree but you keep on coming in to threads and posting. If you look at your posts, you are one the few people on here that actually thinks you have it all figured out.

Everyone on here is trying to improve their game to MAXIMIZE their edge. That means we are looking for the most +EV lines to crush the games, not to just be a nit that makes a profit.

To think that JTs is a fold in EP against the kiddie table is just laughable. Fine, limp pre if your table is loose passive and short-stacked. Easy game. But folding? Nobody agrees with you because this hand flops so well and our opponents are so so bad. I can list like 5 different scenarios why playing this hand is profitable against our terrible opponents.

-They will make like 1/4th pot bets on the flop and give us super good odds to draw, plus pay off big bets when we hit.

-When we hit marginal top pair hands, our opponents will play face up and check with weak holdings and never bluff us off our hand. They have OBVIOUS bet sizing tells like betting tiny with marginal hands and betting pot when they have a huge hand.

-Also, there are times we can (GASP!) turn our hand into a bluff on the river and rep a flush when our straight draw misses against an OMC that has an obvious top pair.

-Or we can semi-bluff turns when a face up abc player bets $15 into a pot of $70 with his one pair holding and we have a tight image that can rep 2pairs and sets (hey we limped in after all...)


When players are this freaking bad, we want to play lots and lots of pots with them. We cant do that when we are folding pre. Especially folding a hand that is strong enough to come in for a raise!



GG, you are playing too tight and getting flamed because you are actually offering bad advice to anyone who wants to get good. The only people that would benefit from folding pre is the newbie player that will stack off with top pair. Im pretty sure most on this forum are beyond that stage.

OK, so raise big enough to thin the field. Make a raise big enough that you will normally get HU or 3 ways to a flop. If it happens to go 6 ways to a flop anyway, so what? If you limped JTs in EP (which is totally OK no matter what people say) and there was a raise and 4-5 calls, you would call also, so going 6 ways after raising is not a big problem.

You can play the flop completely differently depending on whether its HU or 6 ways. SPR is rarely going to mean much unless you went 6 ways and flopped 2 pair+. If its HU you will almost never be playing for stacks, but what you will be doing is winning a high percentage of the time with J high. If its 5-6 ways, you just give up unless you have a lot of equity on the flop and then you play accordingly.

Your "SPR is the end all be all of poker" style is limiting every aspect of your poker game.

@ bodybuilder

I used to think playing JTs in most games was profitable, thanks in large part to most of my opponents exhibited traits that you list there. Those traits aren't nearly as common in the games I play in now. So I simply think it tilts the hand from "likely marginally profitable in EP" to "likely marginally losing in EP".

@ Mike

"Raising big enough to thin the field" isn't as easy as you make it out, and you know that. You're in EP. You have no idea who or how many are interested in playing their hand. I play in games where a $30 raise could easily be called in 4 spots, or take it down preflop, but we're just guessing at the result cuz we're in EP and have no idea what is going to happen. Putting in $30 preflop with J high OOP when some stacks are at $250 (>> 10% of our stack) is pretty meh.

FWIW, I'm not going to argue to the death that playing JTs from EP is a horrendous play or anything, because it isn't. I simply question it's profitability overall in this spot at most tables (the only thing that matters), and for better or worse I've concluded it likely isn't (although I could be wrong). But to state it's a horrendous fold or obviously +EV to play is lol. Also, there's not one single player at my table folding JTs in EP, and yet most players at my table are overall losers (my guess being partly because they're not folding hands like JTs in EP); the more things I do different than them, the more chance I have at being a winner.

GbutyouallcandowhatyouwantG

It's just going to be so hard for anyone to not lose money to you when you limp JTs in EP, so it's definitely a play reserved for high stakes, at this level with the rake being ultra high compared to pot sizes, and players who are going to make a ton of mistakes, raising is way better, it is probably the same mathematically as folding in a vacuum but we don't go to the casino to break even

SPR is the end-all, be-all of one particular approach which is obviously a perfectly viable way to beat a game where the villains make the kinds of errors gg describes and which doesn't involve opening JTs in EP. This should be totally uncontroversial.

To everyone talking about "setting their own price", are we betting the same amount with AQ, KK, AA, 99 and QQ?

Merely "beating the game" shouldn't be the goal. Beating the game is pretty easy.

GG,

You seriously have to be the most hard headed good (who could be great) player Ive ever come across.

So he is out of position and opening JTs big enough to thin the field where 10x goes four ways and this is a spot you want him to ignore SPR? I have to be missing something here.

10x raise from EP goes 4 ways? Whatever. That's in GGs mind. I dont care where you play, that happens once in a blue moon.

If he really played in games like that he could nit it up and win at 15BB/hr which is not the case. If that really does happen in his games and hes not absolutely crushing the games with a massive nit strategy then hes doing lots of other things terrible wrong.

Mike = Mike

GG = Joey Knish

And 6betme = worm

And the women in his life = rake

If you don't raise hands like JTs from EP vs good/decent players then you might as well just play your hands face up because you'll be drawing dead in these lineups.

Now, if you have 4 whales to your left that call any raise then you might have a valid point about limping. Limping this hand really isn't in my DNA but that's not to say there aren't situations where it might be correct. It's certainly not correct as a default though and if your opponents are playing reasonably preflop then this is a slam dunk open especially if players don't 3bet often.