I'm referring to his shoving range.

Shove flop.

This thread has some crazy advice in it. There are people who want to flat JJ in position against an aggro opener. There are people who want to check back the flop after getting an amazing flop for our hand and others who want to overbet open shove into a dry sidepot, chasing out any hope of action from worse hands.

Guys, this hand is really simple. Preflop is good, although ideally you'd size the three bet to reopen action if short stack shoves. Flop is a mandatory bet and you have to call his shove. Is he check/folding 1010 here? Is he check/folding 99? Why would he ever just call with these hands and put himself in a bad place on most turn cards?

His likely range here is 88-QQ I think. Rarely he might have AA or KK slow played or AQhh/AKhh. He is unlikely to be opening 22-55 here and if he does and hits a set, GG dude.

What makes this a unique spot are two things: 1) V pre no R/F range; 2) flop texture. Essentially his 3b/call range pre is very likely the same range that would CRAI flop, imho. As a result, I think 33 has to be considered from an equity standpoint, as well as a few more FD combos like KhQh/QhJh/KhJh. Those block our FD range, narrowing Hero to pps/AQs+.

66 is borderline the more I think about it. That said we have a bunch of AK in our range that would take the same line. Perhaps 99/88 can be included.

Conclusion: calling a tighter V range is marginally EV+ at best, however his descript and this specific flop texture makes me call.

Excellent post-huge +1.

Sent from my LG-H815 using 2+2 Forums

Actually, flatting in position with a premium hand against an aggro PFR is called, "printing $$$" at LLSNL. So not sure what you're talking about. We always want to have a situation where our hand is stronger then V's range, especially when he'll continue to barrel into us.

Though this thread seems to want to do it, betting into a dry side pot over a short stack is really not a great idea.

For one thing, you have zero fold equity (and even at LLSNL, FE is a significant part of our win rate).

For another, this flop doesn't really hit V1's range that hard anyway, so we can take the foot off the gas a bit, even with a vulnerable low-premium PP.

I agree, shoving into this side pot would be a terrific mistake, IMO, unless we really think V can call with TT-66, which since we 3b pre, I'd think is unlikely. Had there not been a 3b pre, then I'd be much happier about making a big bet here with our hand underrepped.

In this situation, with a SPR of 2, we shouldn't have any trouble getting stacks in by the river if we wait to see the turn. Also, since we're in position, we can evaluate the situation should an A, K or drop.

IMO, the mistakes made in this hand are:

1) 3b
2) 3b sizing (Too small, 55-18 = 37, which almost doesn't even prevent reasonable set mining. I'd even go to $75, if I wanted to 3b here, knowing V1 is unlikely to fold.)
3) Not having a good enough read on V1 for the action as played.

I guess I just don't understand poker. We are in position against a guy with a wide range who always calls 3 bets, but it is "printing money" to trap him with jacks? Flatting premiums is NOT how you make money at LLSNL, that is how fish play. You build pots when you have the best hand and are in position. Period. Then you play poker post flop. And why are we checking flop? Is it to fold a blank turn? If not, why are we giving a free card? We want air to fold here, there's no reason to slow play jacks. I also don't see how you figure that hero doesn't have a good read on V.

If hero loses here, it is going to be to QQ most often.

There's a lot of differing opinions on the best play here, and I think it really boils down to the lack of info in the OP:


OK, about 400, so hero isn't even sure how much he started the hand with.

If a guy has "no raise/fold range pre", he's over agro, and his iso range from EP includes QJo+/any pair I assume he's a big fish. He's also a "pro ball player" which I assume means he's a young black guy (racist ban I know) with too much money to really care about losing $400. I'm not sure how to interpret "thinking player" with no raise/fold range because these two things are mutually exclusive in my opinion. If you don't have a raise fold/range preflop, then you are not a thinking player.

Pot is $230 how? $1+3+3(limp)+79+79+79=$244. Assume $4-5 rake and pot is $240.

If you started with "about 400", then it would help to know if you have $321 left, $290 left, or $360 left. All of which make a difference in the advice people may offer.

My point is that when faced with an aggro PFR, you don't need to 3b him to get $$$ into the pot. In fact, frequently, the 3b is counter productive, since you are doing something that is so out-of-the-ordinary that he notices. If you just call him down, he'll punt off his stack.

Ask me how I know...

G, I think your range on Villain is too tight. He can easily have many monster draws (overcard broadway hearts) in his range, and I'm guessing that alone makes this a snap (albeit an uncomfortable snap). Add in some TT/etc. that doesn't know what else to do / levels themselves into thinking we're the ones with AK/99/etc., another random hand such as 33 or so some part of the time, then always add in some 5% spazz/wtf, and pretty snappy, imo.

I know there's a third guy all-in on the hand, but correct me if I'm wrong, this gambloorer could literally have ATC for just $79 and a bunch of dead money in the pot, right? I mean, gambloorer has 97sooted here a bunch. I think both us and the Villain can ignore him and not worry too much about the equity he's sucking up.

Even though I know we can't "turn our brain off" and just do everything by SPR, the SPR here is 1.5. Villains would have to have an *extremely* tight range with no spazz/wtf factor whatsoever to ever think getting in half our stack here and folding would somehow be correct.

Gmadeourbed,nowlieinit,imoG

How do you know?

If three betting is really unusual for you, I guess this could be true. I three bet in position with a fairly wide range. Since most players are fit/fold this is profitable. I really can't imagine too many turnouts with JJ that I love calling down with. Are we assuming he is running a three barrel bluff often? If so, are we holding up to turn and river bets when a Q falls? Or a K? I think slow playing here leads to a lot of incorrect folds and incorrect calls. Plus three betting allows us to take the initiative. We can almost always check back the flop for a free card if we wanted. So it is only more expensive than flatting if we chose to continue flop.

Pretty much this.

Pre 3! I mean v2 could be legit back raising a monster but our smallish sizing May well have created the unconventional pf action. Similarly flop sizing <1/2 pot may have induced the shove.

Who knows maybe this may have even se us up for max value.

But commonly larger pre, bet std sizing otf, shove safe turns frequently results in conventional unthreadworthy action.

Now call.

Hero knows exactly how much he started the hand with. Hero covers the table by a large margin. What hero is not certain of (especially in memory, but with about $20 margin of error even at the time) is what V1s exact count is. He's two to the right and therefore his stack is hard to count.

Actually, I put the pro ball player in there to give an idea of the likely aggression factor. He's a minor league baseball player (with a bit of time in the bigs). He's not a big fish, though he's not very good either. He's better than most of the droolers at the table, and is likely a small winner in the game, though his swings can be ridic.

Yup. This is likely true. I leveled the eff out of myself in this hand.

100% this, and I should have considered it in my ranging. I had a suspicion that he was abnormally excited to play this hand (small lol-live tell) and just didn't give him any spazz range, which was a clear mistake.

Also, I couldn't do the math in hand quickly/accurately enough. I ranged him (likely too tight and def should have included a 10% spazz holding factor) at sets, 44, TT+, AhJh+, but I estimated my equity against that range incorrectly as ~20%.

results:

FWIW, I made an even worse fold a couple weeks back when facing a lol 2/3 PSB shove into 2 opponents when I had flopped TP on a Qxxr flop. The Villain I was up against always fastplays 2 pair, and he had to put big preflop raiser me on a big pair like he usually does (in fact even saying to me after he shoves "go ahead GG, call with with your AA/KK"). I overestimated all of this information and let it override the fact that I HAD A FRICKEN 2/3 PSB LEFT WITH TP.

Lesson to be learned from my hand and yours: spazz/wtf factor of 20% probably ain't a bad starting point.

GpresidentofthebadfoldclubG

Using the term "fold equity" implies that villain is probably more sophisticated than he is. I think it would be correct to say villain here probably raises with the expectation of getting called and is indifferent to whether he gets called. The third player all-in should decrease the likelihood of a spazz bet. The question is how happy he is to get it in with a draw and if he thinks losing with 99 here is an inevitable cooler.

As a player with a tight image I have been shown a hand that would be the equivalent of TT here in similar situations by a player folding. Sometimes, it's a player I would describe as a smart LAG who respects my bets.

I think it is interesting to flip the scenario and ask what hands we are raise/calling pre and check-raising with here in V1's spot against a player resembling OP at these stack sizes.