Hero (SB, $550): Mid 20s WG. Somewhat of a reg, have played with a few guys at the table and have a winning image. Probably seen as somewhat aggressive, and almost always have it at showdown. I have a history with V2, as he called down my bluff on a busted flush a few orbits ago (might post that hand as well, because bluffs are such a small part of my game). We've played once before and I got the best of him then.

V1 (BB, $700): MAWG. Reg that I've seen in the room, but I haven't played with him before, but he seems like he knows what he's doing. He recently just moved to the seat on my left from the other side of the table, so he's at least positionally aware and trying to get on the right (correct) side of the money and "aggressive" players.

V2 (Button, $400ish): MAWG. He's a thinking-ish player. Can tell he knows the game, but his aggression often gets the best of him as he routinely tries to win pots by betting big if he senses weakness. Wide opening/3bet range (he 3! to $70 earlier from BB with K-10diamonds to isolate a $100 stack that GII). Had $500 when I got to table, ran it up to around $800, and gave a bunch back. Plays a high variance game. However, it doesn't appear that he likes to call light, but he definitely tries to maintain the initiative in hands. C-bets a very high percent of the time.

OTTH:

One MP limper (guy limp folds regularly), V2 makes it $21 on the button, I look down in the SB and see JJ.

My thoughts at this point where that if I 3! to $65 or so and V calls, his range is probably narrowed to 1010+, AQs+, and I'd be playing a pretty bloated pot OOP. If I call and smash flop or it is low and dry, I can check and V2 is almost certainly going to fire at the flop.

I elect to call, V 1 calls as well. At this point, I'm not sure where I range him. I'm assuming that he views V2 like I do, and knows that if he can smash flop that V2 will voluntarily throw money in the middle. Range him at 22-1010, and probably 89s+, and connected broadways. I think he's definitely 3! QQ+, and probably AK as well. MP limper folds.

Flop (~$65): 2-4-6 rainbow.

I check with the intent to c/r when V2 fires at it, and call if V1 raises.

V1 checks, V2 predictably bets $60, and I raise too $150. V1 thinks for a little bit, and makes it $350 to go (FML). V2 is pretty upset at the series of events, and promptly folds.

Hero?

Really looking for opinions on thought process and ranges, and how you would play this hand both pre and post lop.

JJ is a pretty standard 3bet preflop against a competent btn raise. As played, there is no reason to x/r this flop. You don't really have any bluffs/semi-bluffs here, and there really isn't anything you need to protect against. X/c and allow villain(s) to continue with a wider range. Raising narrows their range too much, which is ironic given preflop.

Must 3bet

C/r is silly

Fold now I guess meh

+1
+1
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There are good times to flat JJ from the SB, this isn't one. Grab some value pre and play smart post even if he only flats the range described.

c/r is just an awful plan on a ragged flop with a hand you've underrepped that simply won't be doing well against any bet-c range. You'll immediately have lost value overall compared to 3b.

Cold threebs on the flop aren't hands worse than JJ - easy fold.

This.

I'll just add that C/R the flop is really really bad.

Saying that 3! pre will narrow V down to TT+ AQs+ is a variant of MUBS, the "they'll know I have it" variant. If that were really true, you could profitably 3! ATC. You said he opens wide, well, if I'm OTB after one limper I have a pretty wide raising range, something like this if not wider (GG look away now):

22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

That's 27.3% of hands. TT+ AQs+ is 3.8% of hands. You have him folding 86% of his opens to a threebet.

Edit: I mean maybe you're a huge nit and he really will fold almost everything if you 3!. The solution to players correctly identifying you as a nit is not to nit it up even further and go passive because nobody ever calls when you raise. It's to widen your raising ranges.

Edit #2: As others have noted, the flop x/r is completely at odds with your preflop plan. Essentially you were like "you want to see three flop cards for free? sure, here you go" but then "see a turn card cheaply? NOT ON MY WATCH!".

^^ Imo that's pretty nitty for a button opening range RFI

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Wow my bad sorry was pretty tired. For some reason just didnt read that part about after one limper

This hand is an abortion.

3bet pre.
Flat the flop.
?? on the turn that we will never see because we screwed everything else up.

At least abortions end up with a good result sometimes.

I'm ok with our preflop plan. With the limp/folder and us in the SB, us flatting will very likely isolate the Button for cheap, with a disguised hand and most likely an ok SPR around 10ish. 3betting is of course an option, but it can get us in a sick spot if 4bet, there's no significant dead money in the pot worth going after, plus we'll be playing a difficult player OOP in a bloated pot where our hand will see a lotta gross flops. A little unlucky that V1 came along and created an SPR of ~6 (which will actually create some difficulty).

I'm not sure I like our check/raise plan. I definitely wouldn't like it if the SPR was ~10 as it would definitely be overplaying our hand (imo). With a SPR of ~6, perhaps there is more argument for it. Still, I'd probably just flat. This guy loves attacking weakness, and a check/raise ain't that, so I think this usually results in him folding hands we crush and continuing with hands that crush us (although I guess on this board there are some hands in a middle territory that have a tough decision like smaller overpairs).

Trivial fold for me once V1 gets involved. I mean, if he's flatting TT preflop he's not going to go bonkers with it postflop to this action, right?

GtoughhandG

This is a very dangerous and expensive way to go about building a strategy.

Why must we automatically be 3betting an aggressive Button player whose aggression gets him into trouble when he senses weakenss? Seems to me flatting JJ and setting up a bluffcatcher is easily profitable, no?

Gdoesn'thatea3bet,justdoesn'tthinkit's100%necessar yG

There are several factors that make a 3b pre here better than a flat IMO.

We're OOP, which means that the value of our hand postflop is reduced. RIO and positional play mean we'll win less or lose more. With a higher fraction of the hand's value represented already in the preflop pot, playing a hand post is less attractive.

V OTB isn't a drooler and can put us to tough decisions post. If he were an aggro fool, we could plan to call it down. If he were passive, we could call the flop but plan to fold to further action unless we hit. But it sounds like he's in roughly the right aggression range. That means he's going to bet lots of hands we beat along with some that we don't. Assuming he bets about 2/3 the pot, he should have 2 or 3 bluffs for each value bet to be reasonably unexploitable. If he's not exploitable, we don't have many good ways to get him to make FTOP mistakes. Meanwhile, if the flop has a Q, K, or A we're not going to love either calling or folding, either of which could be a mistake on our part. Similarly, if V bets the flop and barrels the turn, is he just attacking weakness? Value betting QQ+ or some other miracle flop? We set ourselves up to have to make tough decisions while allowing him an information advantage on every street.

Flatting pre invites the other people in the hand to come along. That's not wonderful for a hand like JJ that is very likely ahead now, but is vulnerable to many flop cards. The more people there are in the hand, the more likely we have to play cautiously adding to the risk that we lay down the best hand.

If we 3b, a number of advantages accrue. If V 4b, we can comfortably get away from the hand. We discourage speculative calls from other V's. We take control of the hand and make V react to us, while we gain additional information based on his response to the 3b. We avoid allowing V a cheap chance to flop big against us.

If we 3b pre, the general plan would be to fold to a 4b from anyone. It's not likely we're seeing a light 3b/4b/... pattern here. If we get called, we'll bet nearly every flop: low flops will be scary because we might have a big pair; high card flops will be scary because we might have a big cards. V will not be digging life. If he comes over the top OTF, we can be pretty confident we're beat: V is known to attack weakness and 3b pre, bet flop doesn't exactly scream weakness. After the flop, we'll need to play poker, reading his hand and our hand from his perspective to determine turn and river play.

Grunching:

Stacks are a bit awkward pre. You will flop 2nd pair or worse 55% of the time. You will be value owning yourself if you 3 bet enough (>$135) to make it worthwhile to GII with 2nd on the flop. Forget that plan.

You can call and profitably set mine. (You'll be putting in less than 5% of effective stacks.)

My suggestion is a re-raise to $65. This should blow V1 out of the hand. Taking down $27 OOP isn't bad, but I think you are defining V2's 3-bet calling range far too tightly. Laggy V should know that his button bet should look like BS and adjust his 3-bet calling accordingly. (Thinking LAG's do.)

You may have to give up the 55% of the time an A, K, or Q hits the flop. However, if you check on the 45% of flops where you have an overpair or better, V should see you as wiffed AK and bet virtually always if I interpret your descriptions correctly. Then, just GII. If you flop a set, even better.

AP, fold. V1 should have a set unless he botched preflop.

Anybody but me see betting a high card flop as betting for information, trying to bluff V off a bluff?

Your prime directive should be to formulate a strategy that will be the most profitable and not just the most easily profitable.

Are we really having a discussion about whether we should 3b the 4th best hand in holdem against a loose button open? Come the **** on.

This is pretty basic poker and we don't need to go through any theoretical discussions. The correct answer is obvious from a simple question: if you are villain in this spot, and opening the sort of range this guy is likely to be opening, what would you prefer hero to do with his hands like JJ: flat them, or 3b them? Exactly.

Fold AINEC. What a mess. /thread.