1/3, 10 players, great table

Villain ($300) is 20ish male who is wearing earphones. I don't think we've ever played together. He was playing at the table beside me (which was horrible, full of decent regs) and he requested a table change to this table (which is great, with a high moron percentage): so I read this as being not a moron. But his preflop raise size after so many limpers is just terrible (he shoulda saw a 9way flop coming at this table), as is is flop donk size: so I'm not sure my first read is correct. Hasn't been in any hands of note.

Hero ($600) hasn't been in any hands that Villain has seen, so he probably has no read on me other than I have a decent stack.

Preflop (10 players): Hero is Button with A 9
6 limps, Hero limps, SB completes, BB raises to $15, all the limpers call, Hero calls, SB calls

[Did I mention the awesomeness of this table? I have a terribly dominated hand but there are lottsa other big stacks at the table (one absolute moron covers me, a couple other morons have $300+ stacks). I have the button, I'll be getting 8:1; ez call, right? I didn't raise preflop the first time round cuz the more morons in the hand to stack, the better; I don't want to limit the field here.]

Flop (9 players, $135): A A 5
SB checks, Villain bets $35, folds to Hero who raises to $75...

[I'm not raising for value, because I feel it's unlikely that Villain will call with a worse hand. I'm not bluffing, because Villain will never fold a better hand. But with pot so big, I'm not comfortable getting into a calldown situation as stacks will easily be able to get in by the river. So, instead I simply set my price for the hand. If Villain does anything other than fold, I'm done with the hand (though I might pay off a very small river bet after letting the turn check thru). So basically, I'm raising for information, which I know is a no-no. Can someone explain why this is wrong here? Better lines?]

Is there any merit at all for "raising for information" / "seeing where I'm at" if it is more-or-less setting our price for what we are willing to pay for the hand? Or is this horrible?

With nine players taking the flop, your only choices are to throw it away, or raise it to try to get some draws out of there, to define the hand, and see where you're at. It would be better if the flop rainbowed, but it didn't. You have a hand that can easily trap you, especially with so many taking that flop. Your nine on the side may -- or may not -- be any good. Just calling leaves you guessing.

You have to raise, but you also have to be ready to ditch.

Can't read the spoiler on my ghettol phone. Anyhow, I don't lkke raising/betting ror info. Make those plays b/c you think you have the best hand or as a bluff.

Im not sure how you could not be raising for value with that bet size into a pot that big from villain just re evaluate if to get re raised, which you almost never are in this spot.

preflop I think just raising to 15 yourself is prob better on the btn here.

What's your plan instead?

In a limped pot with big stacks, I'd be cool with calling down reasonable bets / soul reading (i.e. let villain bluff off chips with a worse hand that will pretty easily fold to a raise) cuz my stack won't be at risk. But here, effective stack of $300 will easily be at risk by the river.

Sorry, I don't understand your post.

Are you saying that my raise was for value? I'm not really expecting worse hands to call, so I didn't think it was...

If I'm reraised, I'm insta-dumping this.

I think you played the hand fine, three of the four aces are accounted for cutting down on villain's A-x combos (and if he is not a total drooler you have to think that would consist AJs+,AQo+ and JJ+ so that's only 5 combos of Aces and 24 of pocket pairs...) his pre-flop raise size, if he is not horrible, is more indicative of a suited connecter type hand that wants to degen it up and juice the pot to play in a big multi-way pot...

On the Flop, you have to raise as people will call with flush draws as well as possibly underpairs 88-TT who may call the small flop raise, putting you on a flush draw. I think i would actually call his ship if he would also 3-bet shove with K-high flush draws here...Haven't read spoiler yet.

my point is villains range when he makes that bet size if pretty weak sauce so your are way ahead of his range when you raise you should be hoping for a call.

I understand what your saying about its tough to get calls from worse here given the board but you would be surprised how often this is a FD or a hand like JJ that is just stubborn.

you should not really be getting 3 bet here by nut hands (well you can from totally clueless players with the nuts) because wtf can you call with here once villain 3 bets the flop.

that's what that zeebo?? therom is all about 3 bets on paired boards are often air because it makes no sense to do that for value.

Yeti- theorem, I think? 3-bets on dry flops are always bluffs...means less now than back in party poker days as people will 3-bet with more hands than before (still maybe applicable to live???)

Zeebo Theorem is no one ever folds a full house when the board has trips...

I have not read the spoiler.

Given the bet-sizing, you are likely ahead most of the time and should raise for value. I think A5, 55 may size it like this, but a decent player leads larger to protect a big A. More likely V has 66+ (semi-bluffing), or a FD (building pot) imo. One of the biggest conundrums in facing weaker players is their bet-sizing.

A FD will likely call if you size it attractively. I know this is weak, but fold to a RR. You had nice odds (and position) to call PF, but clearly you are behind most of the time, besides big-stacked.

As an observer, I’d raise 3x. Nevertheless I’d respect a call if your live read is sending a mixed signal. Pot control with position is OK, even with trips. The table is ripe, so no need to risk most of your stack in this spot.

PF – I think we have to keep in mind our Aces may be shared with so many callers. Thus, our call really prays for nines and or diamonds most times. With position and this table selection, I could see raising your hand PF.

Fold pre-flop.

As mentioned, you're probably sharing aces with alot of players at the table, and it will be tough getting paid off with trip 9's or a ddd on the flop. Your hand has no broadway or wheel potential. It's just a ratty, raggy, ****-bag of a below average hand that seems to get overvalued by poor players. Fold it. Screw anyone who suggests a raise here. You're almost ALWAYS going multi-way, and you're going to be up against a bigger ace almost ever one of those times. the thinner field is only going to make it more difficult to get paid for trip 9's or a flopped flush.

As played, you can raise more on the flop. And I'm NEVER folding here, regardless of what the villain does. If he re-raises me, I shove, and tip the dealer. If he has 55, just reload and get on with your life. Don't level yourself.

Seriously, if you're calling A9 pre-flop, how are you not stacking off on this kind of flop? If you're going to play super-loose and then uber-nitty within the same hand, you're in alot of trouble.

Are you suggesting fold preflop the first time or just to the raise? I'm pretty sure folding first time is horrible (and I also agree with you that I hate raising here for the same reasons you stated). But I'm getting such massive odds + morons + I can make the nut flush. Isn't a call of the raise here standard?

I'm pretty sure raising this flop and then calling an all-in is horrible, no? You're putting villain on 55? What about AK/AQ/AJ/AT?

Preflop is fine. Sometimes I raise, most of the time I'm limping w/that many limpers. Raising the flop is absolute spew. Sometimes you get 3 bet by the nfd and fold the best hand although this is pretty rare. Or if villain has JJ+, villain might hero fold. I like calling down. If villain throws in the 3rd barrel I'm very happy w/folding river. w/e villain had he absolutely has to fold to ur flop raise. Basically u got super lucky u didn't eff urself out of lots of value.

It's been mentioned in this thread already, but if the villain shoves, its most likely a bluff. That line is a horrible way to get value for trip aces. And if you're worried about AK, AQ, AJ, AT, why are you not also excited about A8, A7, A6, A4, A3, and A2. See, even against his MADE hands you're 50/50 with alot of money already in the pot. he could also have KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 44, 33, and 22 and simply think you're bluffing in position. He could also have nothing and think you might fold an ace with a weak kicker.

If you're even thinking about folding trips here, then you should never have put a cent in the pot in the first place.

I really doubt ur random 1/3 player has any bluffs in his range on that board.

I don't even think Villain folding JJ+ here is much of a hero fold, so I'm definitely losing value if he's willing to bluff off more streets.

The problem I have with calling the flop is stack / pot sizes. If I call the flop, the pot will bet a massive $205 and villain has $250 left. Lets say he bets 1/2 PSB of $100 on the turn. Now what? If we call, that makes a $405 pot with villain having $150 left; we're folding the river? Note how the call on the flop/turn cost me $135, whereas my flop raise (the last money I'm putting into the pot) cost me $75.

Again, in a limped pot, I'm all for call/call/calling. But here too?

FWIW, Villain shoving over my raise with a bigger Ax wouldn't be horrible, IMO, and in fact it would be how I would play the hand against 90% of this table (cuz like only one other guy at the table would be able to fold an A here).

You're also weighting the Villain (the preflop raiser) showing up with high Ax hands about the same as he shows up with low Ax hands. I think the percentage of time he shows up with a high Ax >>>> he shows up with a low Ax hand.

My guess is that folding a suited A on the button preflop in this situation (especially preraise) would be considered really bad by everyone here, but I stand to be corrected.

As for not stacking off on trips as a reason not to play the hand preflop, did you notice we went 9 ways (NINE) to the flop? Who in their right mind is bluffing here? I've invested $15 preflop, big deal; now I've flopped trips with the most common card for someone to have in their hand (especially the preflop raiser) and I'm supposed to stack off 100 BB here?

How light is villain raising small pre-flop? do you think he raises low Aces pre-flop?

I don't have any history with villain, and I think this is actually the first raise he's made since he got to the table. As someone mentioned, this raise is so lol that it might even be a pot juicing raise but I doubt that is done with any Ax hands.

You don't think that the average 1/3 player won't level himself into thinking that you're just making a move on the button and/or have a weak kicker and that he might be ok if he makes a big shove with KQss?

Come on man

What information are you looking for to get in a multiway pot? I don't understand what you need to know that will help you to play your hand better. On the flop after your $75 bet what you got is $100 invested or 33% of effective stacks. You are pot committed and from this pot on you cannot fold. Any for from this point on is gonna be -EV. There's no arguments on this one. I'm telling you how's gonna be 100% correct. I mean, if you contemplate to consider your last bet an information investment you are not playing this game with a full deck, so to speak. When your bet for information becomes the commitment bet, you got to do some home work on your strategy because that is not gonna work. I'm telling you the way it is.

Also, I hate to be results-oriented, but I'm pretty sure the results of the hand prove me right.