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1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts 1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts

09-23-2016 , 05:12 PM
What's the best play here?

I'm in a 1-3 NL game with no buy-in limit. Full ring. It tends to play quite loose and aggressive, lots of deep pockets. I've got a very tight image, probably the tightest at the table and moderately aggressive. I've shown down a few questionable holdings from time to time, but nothing that has really shaken my image.

Villains: UTG+1 is a middle aged guy with a goatee, generally in a good mood, and is well-known to the table. He's a deep-pocketed LAG. HJ is a kid who is fairly observant and thinks well, but has some spewy tendencies.

OTTH
I'm UTG+2 with AA and have $700. UTG+1 makes it $15. I make it $50. HJ calls. UTG+1 calls.

Flop ($154)
66A

Checks around

Turn ($154)
9

Checks around

River ($154)
Q

UTG+1 checks. At this point, what's the optimal play for me?
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 05:28 PM
i think flop check is ok though i prefer to bet here esp vs a spewy kid and since we don't have position and also vs a "deep pocketed LAG" who might try to get wild since we have almost no 6x in our range.

once it checks around i think we really have to start betting turn for value. we've checked flop to induce/for deception, but we need to start getting value for our monsters imo. it's going to be pretty hard to get value anyway. just have to hope they have strong pocket pairs and are non-believers, especially since we have almost no 6x in our range.

AP I just bet $120ish on the river for value and hope he has a hand like AQ/KQ/Qx or something.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 05:38 PM
Flop check is good. Bet turn (you would with TT right?). As played $100-125 on river
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 05:56 PM
I always find preflop difficult this deep, especially with a very tight image. This raise sets up a very small SPR of ~4 where stacks can trivially go in postflop, and yet it is very likely we're playing a face up hand having given one opponent 15:1 implied odds and the other 20:1. Course if opponents will stack off with worse postflop, probably not as difficult a spot. But I still think preflop is difficult in general.

SPR is 4ish so stacks can go in on just 2 streets. Highly unlikely anyone is going to catch up enough to easily want to stack off on this board, so we really just have to hope someone gets aggro on us. One way is to check and look weak and hopefully someone puts in some action. Another way is to bet meakly and hope someone plays back. I'm cool with either method.

Once the flop checks thru and it is checked to us on the turn, I think we have to start putting in bets. Again, smaller might be best if we're attempting to induce a bluff.

As played, in general I think the optimum play is to shove the river whenever we have the ~nuts (and we're close enough to nuttish here). So I'd probably just shove and hope Qx (which is very reasonable) can't fold. Or bet small and attempt to induce. Wish we had attempted to make the pot bigger by this time so that a shove isn't such an overbet.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 08:36 PM
Bet flop. You are supposed to cbet this flop. Not cbetting this flop looks much more suspicious.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 08:44 PM
Quote:
probably the tightest at the table and moderately aggressive. I've shown down a few questionable holdings from time to time,
If you're showing down some questionable holdings form time to time, are you sure you're viewed as the 'tighest at the table'?

Hero has $700 - are we to assume that effective stacks vs both villains is $700?

Just c-bet the flop. You don't need to bomb it, it's a three-bet pot. Unless you think someone was calling your pre-flop raise with air someone has something - do you think an ace is folding right now? Is a 6 ever folding? Is a pocket pair above a 7 folding for one bet? Just come out and bet it, start to build a pot up.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-23-2016 , 08:52 PM
You can't get stacks in if you don't bet. People will have Ax and still call, or air like KQ where you aren't getting another bet anyway. If someone actually has a 6 this is how you get their whole stack.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-24-2016 , 04:27 PM
In defense of checking both streets, at this game I think betting folds out most every hand that doesn't contain the case A or a 6, and the only hand with a 6, given the action, is 66. KK is probably not in anyone's range, given most v's here would have gone to the felt pre, so that leaves TT-QQ as most likely from the kid and any pocket pair for the deep pocketed LAG plus the high Ace combos; and there are only 8 of these.

I'm not "supposed" to c bet. I'm not the type of player who C bets every flop he raises into a 3-way pot. This flop could have legitimately missed me had I been 3-betting with KK or QQ. So the check is not unusual given the flop.

The turn brings a card that probably doesn't improve anyone. I'm checking to induce a bet.

The river queen most certainly hit one of these players. So here I'm betting to see i can get someone to play back at me.

So I bet--I shoved. In retrospect this was too much. HJ had about $300 left, UTG1 covered me. Nobody's putting their stack at risk on this board, even spewy LAG players.

HJ tanked and folded, but showed his cards after UTG1 folded. He had QQ for a rivered boat. My friend says I should have checked a third time, that HJ HAD to bet from position with his hand given the action ahead of him. I think I favor a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet instead.

Thoughts?
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-24-2016 , 04:41 PM
Bet turn, AP bet river. $100 is what I'd make it.

On board with not betting flop, I don't bet 3 way flops OOP when I miss anyway.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-24-2016 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diewoodchuckdie
I'm not "supposed" to c bet. I'm not the type of player who C bets every flop he raises into a 3-way pot. This flop could have legitimately missed me had I been 3-betting with KK or QQ. So the check is not unusual given the flop.
How are you playing KK/QQ here? Check/fold? How are you playing AK here? Is there any hand you bet on a flop like this 3 way OOP (there should be)? If we ever bluff on a flop like this 3 way, how can we move such a strong value hand to our check bucket and still have a strong enough value range when we get to the turn with a bet? If we never bluff on a flop like this 3 way OOP, well, we should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diewoodchuckdie
The river queen most certainly hit one of these players. So here I'm betting to see i can get someone to play back at me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diewoodchuckdie
So I bet--I shoved.
These 2 actions do not compute....

Quote:
Originally Posted by diewoodchuckdie
My friend says I should have checked a third time, that HJ HAD to bet from position with his hand given the action ahead of him.
Your friend is right. If you are going to play your monster hands completely passively and let your opponents decide how much they are willing to pay you, you should just stick with this plan. As played, this hand looks like exactly what it is. Would a smaller bet induce? Sure, if one of your Vs has exactly QQ. Would it get a bare Q to call? Maybe, maybe not.

Look, I'm not saying this hand can't be a candidate for a slow play, it can, but only if our range is balanced here. I can tell you, against me in my game, QQ is rarely checking this flop against me and never checking both the flop and turn. The fact that QQ is willing to do this against you tells me that your opponents know too much about you.
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-24-2016 , 06:12 PM
If you sometimes check back Axx boards then you can check here as you're the tight guy smashing the whole board who also checks back when Aces hit.

But bet the turn. Get one street at least from 1010+

Masta--
1/3 how to extract the most with the near nuts Quote
09-24-2016 , 06:43 PM
bet $40-60 otf, i cbet around 30-60% pot after 3betting and give up on some textured board and x/r some, but on this dry of a board im always cbetting and certainly dont have to cbet very large
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