V ($375) MP - No previous pfr since i'd been at table (about 40 minutes). Some limps from various positions, but tighter than most pf. Friend of, imo, the best reg in room. No real post flop reads.

Hero ($1,000) CO - TAG image. Probably winning image bringing decent stack over. Also one, regish player people respect talked me up when I sat down. Raised the two or three hands I VPIP since coming over to table. C-bet two in typical Tag fashion, delayed c-bet the other.

V2 ($275) BB - Not important to hand. Loose passive pre, fit or fold post.

OTTH

Hero picks up A9 in CO. Limper in EP. V raises to $15. Hero flats. BB calls. Limper folds.

Thought process on flatting was deep Button ($1000) has chance to pay off if I hit big. SB relative unknown was also about $600 deep.

Flop ($48) A76

BB checks, V checks, hero bets 30

Thought process was to get value from draws and worse ace. Also to maybe push out better ace (can you hope for both?)

V check-raises to $75.

I think this could be a flush draw, and less likely straight draws (i felt his pfr range was strong), a set of aces. I didn't think it was likely a set of 7s or 6s as there are a lot of draws out there. Lower big pockets JJ-KK could also do this.

Hero??

You put him on AAs? I think 76s, 77 or 66 makes more sense for made hands, but this is a draw or air more frequently. I think he knows you have position on him and wants to take the betting lead, quite frankly. I don't see bigger Aces doing this usually. I'm probably flatting and reevaluating turn.

I think most villains would cbet with a draw, a c/r from a tight pfr is usually strength.

I don't understand what you mean by trying to push out better ace. This is 1/3 a better ace is not folding to 30 into 48.

Did the bb call the 30?

Since he's been tight so far I would just fold now rather than going to war with top pair and a 9 kicker. That was a good flop to cbet but he is trying to get more money in rather than pushing people out. People that miss flops usually cbet dry ones rather than let someone bet and almost minraise them 1.5x.

I'm not calling a V who hasn't raised pre in 40 min with A9s. I expect his range to be super strong until proven otherwise. Fold pre.

Fine to bet the flop. Insta-fold to c/r.

Gonna reply right here before reading the rest. Thought process is flawed. Thinking you might be value betting, but on the other hand you might be bluffing, really means you don't really know why you are betting. So check.

Wants to take the betting lead?? V already has is pre. Giving it up to get it back is super strong, every time I see this line.

I don't mind the call so much preflop and betting the flop as it was checked to me isn't so bad because there are draws there that maybe V2 is calling but once V1 check raised im done with the hand. Not to many Aces we beat except for Ace/8,5,4,3,2 and even then don't think V has that in his range given the description.

Also we don't know any previous HH with villain not sure if he is capable of a semi bluff, but sometimes we have to lay down top pair. Before you fold ask will he show if you fold for info haha.

Don't forget that once you call this raise you have two more streets of betting so it looks like a setup for his stack to go all in.

****, I wrote you a more detailed reply but I don't know what happened to it. Basically, I like to get involved with a variety of villains and I improve my game by outplaying more than just fish (not reading V as a fish), and I find competent villains can do this for a lot of reasons. They have FE with pretty much ATC. They could easily do it with a straight or a FD. It's how I could play Broadway pocket pairs. V, based on his pre-flop line is basically representing 66, 77 or maybe 76s. I'm not convinced a competent villain would open raise suited Axs without a decent kicker in MP. That's why I like flatting here and reevaluating on the turn. I'm not a believer and I've seen too many people get frisky here to be a believer without other reads. I think an important question to ask too is, what does V think we have when we flat? It's pretty strong, and kinda takes a naked stab out of the picture. It shows we're not just locking up our win. It also allows us to credibly represent a lot of turn cards: any spade, 5 or T, possibly an 8 or 9. It's also important to note that ES are not that deep. Turn action is going to tell you a lot about how the hand will play out and I'm not going to just be blindly shoving for the 80ish BB V has left...

If hero isn't really capable of firing a lot of those scare cards, I think it's better to just fold. Folding is a much better option if you're scared of getting your money in the middle without close to the nuts. I don't hate it, but I think I would personally have more EV flatting. Folding is definitely prudent and I would certainly consider it depending on initial perceptions of V. If I fold Im definitely going to make a point of collecting information on V so that I can feel more confident playing him HU going forward. If I feel like I'm getting tired and missing out in key information then it's time to fold, lock up the win and go home.

V2 folded to my flop bet. Forgot to put that in there.

Folding is a much better option - not because I'm scared of getting my money in the middle without close to the nuts, but because I'm smoked about 88% of the time.

I don't see how you can have more EV by flatting.

There is really no reason to fight for every pot to the river, even when I realize that sometimes I might be folding the best hand.

Grunch: I've seen this line from KK once or twice from really angry nits, and I suppose 8s9s is possible, but I think everything else that takes this line beats us. I fold.

Post grunch edit: really weirded out by aftrglw's ranging for V. It feels like he's forgetting that V is the PFRer. If aftrglw really plays Broadway PPs this way on A-high connected boards, i hope he has lock-down reads on his Vs, because trying to get LLSNL randos to fold a pair of aces is an excellent way to spew a ton of chips.

Fold pre.

Flop bet is fine, but fold now.

I'm going to give you a +1 here.

Most important is where you say "if hero isn't really capable of firing a lot of those scare cards, I think it's better to fold." Unclear whether hero is thinking at this higher level, so it is helpful to have it well articulated.

My main point earlier was that V did not need to C/R to get the betting lead, as V was the PFR. Any standard C-bet would have maintained the betting lead.

Why fold pre? My hand plays great multiway. I have pretty good position and there are still two deep stacks that may come along and pay off if I hit a big draw.

Hand played standard until the c/r from pfr, which definitely threw me for a loop. I just don't see that very often.

you're not multiway you're heads up

1) Almost the entire pf range of a tight V crushes A9s

2) You're not multiway yet and you don't close the action. The blinds and limper could reraise or all fold

3) Even if you hit your nut flush, a tight V won't pay you off. Your IO aren't very good

If we think this is going to go multiways deep, then I can get behind a call. If we think this guy could be opening light, I *might* consider a 3bet. But I would typically fold here unless deep stacks are loose and passive and payoff monkeys.

I'm either/or on the flop. There are some draws so I'm cool with going for value against those. But I'm also cool with attempting to wring out 2 bets from a smaller underpair by checking this behind with what could possibly be an aggro image. Whatever. If we knew Villain was aggro and he perhaps thought us as aggro, the more I'd check this behind (because I don't want to face a check/raise as I'd feel uncomfortable folding).

As played, as much as I feel uncomfortable folding, I'd fold. If we call we're basically just hoping he shuts down so we don't have to play for stacks; do people who check/raise the flop shut down?

GcluelessNLnoobG

My pre flop call was due to me believing there was a good chance the hand would go multiway with at least one, if not two of the deeper stacks calling behind. There hadn't been a single 3-bet since I'd sat down.

That obv. didn't happen.

@afterglow and KKingDavid - There are times when I will use position and a scare card to try to bluff someone I think can fold. This guy had been pretty tight in my short session with him. I thought he prob had ability to fold, but wasn't totally sure with no real history.

Tbh, I probably wasn't thinking at that level during this hand. It was:

1. I'll call. These other guys ($1000 BU, $600 SB) may likely come along too. I can win big if I hit a monster.

2. On the flop I took a stab. I stated the reasons (folding out better Aces is def. dumb thought). Would have been happy to take it there.

3. V's c/r was screwy and threw me for a loop.

4.

Big lesson here is that I probably shouldn't have been playing anyway. I was ready to go home and decided to play awhile longer after my original table broke. I was actually on my "last coffee" before the drive home.

As far as

FWIW, my guess is Villain was probably lying about his hand. Put yourself in Villains shoes and what information you'd volunteer to Hero after the hand. If you had Hero crushed, you'd probably say exactly what he said to create doubt for future hands. If you actually had a smaller pair, you'd probably say "nice fold, I had AK" / etc. for similar reasons.

Last session out there's a straddle, a call or two, and I raise to $30 on the Button with AJs. A tight shortstack in the SB who has in recent sessions twice 3bet shipped big Ax hands with a short ~$100 stack (correctly, imo) minraises to $60 leaving just $30 behind. After I fold, he mucks and says "I had AK, nice fold". Yeah, right. The lying that goes on at the poker table is pretty lolz.

GlolzG

These aren't the same. Most (serious) poker players are not going to give you information like that in the middle of a game. However, I've found that people are far more likely to be honest at the end of the night when you're just chatting privately. Especially, ime, if they respect you...

That's fair enough... but I still wouldn't put too much stock in it.

GcluelesslyingnoobG

RIO odds hand, If he had QQ then congrats to him, good move. I'd fold pre to someone I hadn't seen open in 40 minutes.

I saw this move on Live at the Bike. The player had KK and check raised an Ace rag board.

Maybe my ranging is off, I think it's possible because sometimes people do crazy **** in LLSNL. Your comment cut me a bit and got me spelling out exactly why I intuitively like this line. I think it's good for me to rationalize it like that. I'm sticking to my guns here and this is why:

I like flatting here for multiple reasons. I think it's possible we don't have the best hand here, but I'm not convinced. I don't think that's a great reason in and of itself to call. The most important reason to call is because I'm getting more information because I want to know how this V plays. I plan to exploit this information either in this hand if it seems appropriate, or later on. If I fold here I have very little information to use, and I think I can get more information on the turn. I want to know why V gave up the betting lead, then raised when we bet ip. Contrary to many here, I don't think that a x/r is automatically for value. Is V trying to make a move? Is he trying to see where he stands? Also, we have position so we are going to be able to guage V's reaction to many turn cards. If a draw comes in does he check? Does he bet? Is it small or valuish? If a brick comes what does he do? Is he trying to price out a draw? Information like this will help me figure out how V plays certain hands, which will give me some idea of his thought process, and will make it much easier to play against him later.

I have a feeling V is a bit more complex than your regular V: he is (poker?) friends with a respected regular. His bet sizing for a x/r was oddly small. It seems like if he was doing this for value with a made hand he'd want to price out of a draw. Insert onion metaphor. I want a better uderstanding of V's play style so I'm willing to flat, maybe toy with him a bit and possibly donate $45 now to be better able to play him later. Folding the flop keeps me from getting that information so I'm saving money now to be virtually as in the dark about V later as I am now. I'm not going to be blindly playing for stacks hoping to force a fold.

You misunderstand me about the pocket pairs. I'm not x/r'ing to blow a loose passive fish off an A. That's ridiculous, and a fool's errand. I'm x/r'ing to see where I stand when an over card hits, I'm oop, and I have the betting lead against a competent player. When I have QQs and an A flops and I c-bet, V can come along with anything and I have no idea where I am. If I x and he xs behind on a wet flop I can get thin value later. If he's positionally aware and bets I can raise and see if I should be continuing, and this play clearly has amazing FE against the nits in LLSNL . If I do it, I'm going to be raising more than 1.5 the bet.

Thanks. I see your point. I do think my line could just be spewey for a lot of heroes. I tried to cover my reasoning on the betting lead up above. I've done this before and it gives me a better idea of if I'm up against a real hand than a c-bet does, and I think that's the primary benefit. It disincentivizes a float. It can also help you turn a small profit because it's a stronger line and gives you more FE. It only works against certain villains though.

I think we've all been there. If you're tired I'd fold pre. I'd likely be x'ing behind as played with showdown value and a weak kicker. I think it makes the rest of the hand easier to play. I actually like your intuition here and I agree with it. I find my poker senses are usually accurate, they can sometimes be nitty, but they're never really too loose.

QQ actually makes a lot of sense for me here...

If you only include 1 combo of a hand that beats you, it's not really a decision to raise. The discussion should revolve around if that range is accurate though.