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1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand 1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand

01-05-2015 , 12:25 PM
My focus is primarily tournaments and I hadn't played live cash in a while prior to this weekend, so I wanted to get a checkup here.

1/3 at Harrah's New Orleans, Friday night of Sugar Bowl weekend

I've just sat down and am dealt into the cutoff; the guy to my right has sold me $100 in chips and the runner is bringing me the rest, so I'm playing with $300 behind (fairly certain villain has been paying attention and is aware of this). I'm a mid-30s white guy.

UTG straddles to $6 and it folds to villain in MP1, who raises to $16. He's a white guy in his 60s with a sports jersey on; he covers and has a decent stack of greens.

Folds to me, I make it $40 from CO with QQ. Only villain calls, and he does so pretty quickly.

Flop: K22r ($90)

Villain takes a second and casually tosses out $30. I?

More action to come, but wanted to see if there was a consensus on the flop first, including how often he does this with better in light of my perceived range.

Last edited by Gadarene; 01-05-2015 at 12:36 PM. Reason: slightly miscalculated pre-rake pot size
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 12:32 PM
See where you at donk a lot of the time with a worse PP. I'd call and see what the turn brings. You'd be flatting with pretty much your entire range so you're not giving anything away either.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 12:34 PM
Against a complete unknown I am going to flat.

His small flop donk makes it very tempting to put in a raise but without knowing his play style I don't want to start building a pot with QQ on K high board. Plus raising folds out a lot of medium PP that we have crushed.

I am betting just about any turn if he checks to me.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 01:08 PM
I'm cool with the 3bet preflop, especially in a straddled pot, although I might size it slightly more.

I didn't grunch this for some reason, but I think I typically just fold here. I know playing with the unknown dynamic is difficult, but we just 3bet preflop, got called, saw a K high flop, and guy is donking into us. Is this really TT attempting to fold QQ enough?

GfoldseasilyG
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I'm cool with the 3bet preflop, especially in a straddled pot, although I might size it slightly more.
GfoldseasilyG
Wouldn't we want to flat here to see if the straddle trys a steal? With more table time we might have a different view on this. A 'first hand' raise will probably narrow everyone's range quite a bit ... and are we really trying to take this pot down right now?

I certainly call here and see if V leads the Turn also. I dont like a raise here for the exact 2nd portion of 'gg' post. He has shown enough strength here to respect, but he could also be sitting on AQ/JJ (not really TT IMO either).

This is an image builder too when you get to a new table .. you can pick how to handle this (and even show) based on how you want to be seen going forward. GL
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
See where you at donk a lot of the time with a worse PP. I'd call and see what the turn brings. You'd be flatting with pretty much your entire range so you're not giving anything away either.
This. No need to bloat the pot with no reads. I'd probably fold to a turn bet though unless we bink.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Wouldn't we want to flat here to see if the straddle trys a steal? With more table time we might have a different view on this. A 'first hand' raise will probably narrow everyone's range quite a bit ... and are we really trying to take this pot down right now?
I don't hate this idea at all, although I'd be cooler with it if we had more of a handle on straddler / table tendencies. Another thing is the raise is actually fairly small for a straddled pot and we don't really want to go multiway (which might end up happening if we just flat). At loose / gambooley / raisey tables though, I'm cool with a flatting/reraising idea.

Also, since it's our first hand / table has zero read on us, our 3bet might be seen as welcome-to-the-table BS so it might generate more action than usual.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 04:39 PM
Looks like most people would flat flop. Still interested in hearing more thoughts on his flop range, but I'll post turn as well:

1/3 at Harrah's New Orleans, Friday night of Sugar Bowl weekend

I've just sat down and am dealt into the cutoff; the guy to my right has sold me $100 in chips and the runner is bringing me the rest, so I'm playing with $300 behind (fairly certain villain has been paying attention and is aware of this). I'm a mid-30s white guy.

UTG straddles to $6 and it folds to villain in MP1, who raises to $16. He's a white guy in his 60s with a sports jersey on; he covers and has a decent stack of greens.

Folds to me, I make it $40 from CO with QQ. Only villain calls, and he does so pretty quickly.

Flop: K22r ($90)

Villain takes a second and casually tosses out $30. I call.

Turn: T, completing the rainbow ($150)

He doesn't take too much time before betting $80. He seemed fairly relaxed and I didn't get the sense that he was overly worried about being raised. I have $230 total and I?

Maybe I'm overthinking this hand (or it's my rustiness), but his speed/apparent comfort on both streets was confusing; the small flop donk combined with the largish turn lead left me struggling to construct a plausible range for him given the preflop action. (i.e., how often does he flat my 3bet pre with AK and then take the initiative when he flops top pair on a dry board? having been called on the flop -- and with AK squarely as part of my range, especially vs. live opponents who love to put people on that hand -- how often does he fire again so blithely with KQ/KJ or worse even if he was happy to call with those OOP pre? Can we remove stuff like 77-99 from his range after his second bullet?) We obviously have scant outs to improve if behind, and even most rec players will correctly assume we almost never have 2x in this spot given preflop (but also won't be so foolish as to rep it themselves), so what's he most likely trying to do and what's the best plan here?

Last edited by Gadarene; 01-05-2015 at 04:51 PM.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 04:53 PM
He's repping a K, and without any reads I fold and move on.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-05-2015 , 05:22 PM
Preflop I think our sizing needs to be much larger, like 50-55ish. On the flop I'm ok with Flatting and reevaluating to see what villans master plan is. Honestly his age makes me believe he was playing fit or fold with AK. I've seen plenty people in his age range play AK in a similar fashion. I think its far more likely to be AK than you think it is. They don't want to 4 bet commit themselves even though it may be the better play. They would rather flat oop and see if they flop TPTK.

With this little info I am folding to the turn bet. This is just s crappy spot and we know we are facing a decision for our stack. It's not something I'm willing to do in this spot vs this player with our hand.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 12:59 AM
pre and flop are fine, im calling flop to see if he will double barrels and fold if he does.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 02:25 AM
I'd raise bigger after the 16 open, but that's just nit picky. I like the rest of the hand too, assuming you fold to his turn bet.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 04:53 AM
This is AK or AA every time
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 05:25 AM
Bigger raise PF

I'm not in love with King high flop in a 3b pot, and start hating life more when unknown older player donks into us. I question why wouldn't he doesn't check to get atleast your cbet if he has AK.

I think he likely 4b KK/AA unless he planned to slow play them. So I'm more likely to give him a weighted 3b calling range of TT-QQ/AK, and KQs, AQs (only 2 combos) and I believe KJ folds. The majority of his weighted range has AK (16), JJ (6), TT (6), KQs (3). We're doing good vs 12 and losing to 19 and possibly 9 more (3 KK, 6 AA).


Doing this on the phone so can't stove it, but in my first hand vs an unknown on a K high board I consider folding the flop due to expecting a DB barrel very frequently which I don't like, and hand combinations in a 3bet pot based on my experience and what I read here on low stakes forums vs older players. Turn is clear fold
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 06:49 AM
The fact that the dude is in his 60's and wearing a sports jersey seems to me, to be a splashy action player. Almost every person in their 60's or older wearing a sports jersey, that I have faced, has been an action player. Calling super light betting any made hands and draws.

Does he seem like he is/was druggy? Or does he look like a straight laced clean cut 60's male wearing an Oregon Ducks Jersey that just watched them play in their playoff game, and he's supporting the team of the college he went to.

That makes a big difference to me. The first one is more apt to be a donk playing solely on the fact he has some type of hand or draw. The latter is more apt to be a thinking reason based player. Tighter in his range.

Obv you are making some generalizations based on appearance, but that's what we do when waiting for further information.

I prob fold to either type with no read, but I'm a lot closer to seeing a river against the action player.

Masta--
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-06-2015 , 09:15 PM
Yeah, I'm not really sure why he donked the flop with AK/AA/KK. You'd think he'd want to get the c-bet from the pre-flop 3-bettor at the very least.

That being said, this is a pretty easy fold on the turn imo. Regardless of his flop action, when he makes a good sized bet OOP into someone who has shown a lot of strength in the hand, he's almost always beating QQ.

If he's bluffing with JJ here against an unknown player OOP, he'll be giving his money away soon enough. Just wait for a better spot.
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote
01-07-2015 , 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaC707
Does he seem like he is/was druggy? Or does he look like a straight laced clean cut 60's male wearing an Oregon Ducks Jersey that just watched them play in their playoff game, and he's supporting the team of the college he went to.
This was in Harrahs NOLA; Sugar Bowl was O$U/Bama. More likely the guy was wearing one of those jerseys than a Ducks jersey.

Flop I'd flat also, turn I'd fold, pretty much for the same reasons as everyone else
1/3 facing annoying line, biggish pot in first hand Quote

      
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