1/3 game, effective stacks 900.

I am playing for fun, so I play too loose preflop, but tend to tighten up postflop and try not make too many stupid plays. Generally get paid off good if I make a hand, the table probably view me as a loose fish. Probably they´re right, but I play poker to have fun and not to fold for two hours straight.

V1 limp-calls a lot preflop, don´t think I´ve seeen him three-bet once during around five hours of play. Postflop he only puts it in if he has something. Got me good a while ago for a 200BB+ pot where I held 66 on a 632 all-hearts board and lost against his Jh8h (flop action went bet-call-I raise to 100-he goes all-in for 330 total, folds to me and I call). Stack - around 700.

V2 is solid pre, knows how to play. Has been taking advantage of his position vs me and three-bet my loose opens quite a lot (his three-bet frequency vs me is much much higher than against the other players). Today he´s been winning most pots against me, earlier in the session we ended up all-in on a T-high flop with me holding a combo draw (flush+straight) where he had AT (he held on two boards). Has also shown a tendency to play good draws aggressively, not only against me. Based on two sessions I would say that he will play big pots against me with one-pair hands, but haven´t hit any good spot to get paid. Covers me, I am playing around 900 deep.

Preflop:
V2 opens to 10 in EP, gets a few callers, I call from the SB with T9s. V1 calls from the BB.

Flop: (Pot: 60)
A T 9

Checks to V2 who bets 30, i check-raise to 100. V1 calls. V2 raises to 300.

And now I am hating life. If I pile it in, I have a coinflip at best if called, drawing dead or to four outs at worst. If I just call I still have V1 behind me who has some kind of strong hand and I don´t really feel like calling off a third of my stack only to fold if V1 and V2 pile it in. If I just call and V1 calls as well, there are very few turn cards that don´t risk turning my hand to **** (if I´m not already dead) and I am sitting in a hugely bloated pot OOP with around 2/3 PSB left.

So, after thinking this over, I fold. Might be a trivial fold, I don't know, though at that time against V2 I really, really hated to be forced to fold.

I fold here. These spots are usually a flopped flush, if it's not a flush it's a set, if it's not a set it's AT or A9s. I don't think he's playing a draw aggressively here.

I fold too, you’re either slightly ahead of a big draw or crushed by a set or a flush.

I'm whatever preflop and pretty much don't have an issue with all 3 options (call, fold or squeeze). I'm on the low variance nittier side so facing a raise and being OOP with a suited connector (which has high RIO in very multiway pots) I'd lean to folding.

I'd probably just bet/bet/bet for smallish amounts (no more than 1/2 PSB) targeting Ax / draws, shut down on poor runouts, and likely fold if raised at any point. So I'd probably donk the flop for $30. I think a check/raise plan is way overplaying our hand (as it is an extremely modest one on this board this multiway).

As played, I fold facing all this action.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Your flop raise is a significant mistake IMO. Bottom two is a very marginal hand on a monotone flop, by raising you’re isolating yourself to hands that have you drawing nearly dead (flushes,AT,A9) or at best hands that are marginally ahead of you like Ax with one diamond, which is probably a small favorite versus your hand. flop is closer to a check/fold than a check/raise.

You shouldn’t really raise here without a flush or the Kd.

Even at $300 effective your raise is an overplay. At $900 effective… it’s really bad.

When I flop bottom two on a monotone board multi-way my heart sinks, I think “f, I have to play this hand”, and I immediately go to pot control mode.

You should either lead or check-call here with marginal hands like 2-pair. I prefer check-call from OOP, since leading opens me up to getting bluffed by anyone holding the Kd.

AP snap fold.

Check/call evaluate turn 100%. I don't ever like leading here multi way because of this exact scenario. You praying to get to showdown without any more diamonds hitting.

As played fold. You got your answer after placing your raise.

Thank you for the replies.

My reasoning for raising was that he will probably call me with all Ax here, even without diamonds, and he will call with hands containing the Kd, for example, and I prefer to have this hand HU since it helps me narrow down what my opponents actually would be holding. Maybe a mistake in retrospect, I don´t know, but V2 in this hand has shown tendencies to happily get it in quite light with me in larger pots.

I am not really afraid of diamonds hitting, once in a while I might get bluffed off the best hand, but most of the time it would just make gameplay really easy.

I agree that my reasoning probably is flawed, given that my equity is slim even against Ax hands with diamonds (and the stack sizes are also awkward this deep OOP), so I should have played it in another way.

However, I don´t really like check-calling here OOP. I don´t see how it loses less when we are behind and wins more when we are not. I mean, if I check call, turn is a brick, he bets, I´m not folding, brick river, I check, he bets, and I have a tough decision to make for a sizeable pot (and if I fold here I don´t lose less than by check-raising). And I lose value against hands I am beating, and inviting V1 to join in with his drawing hands for a good price.

As for results, I folded, V1 tanked for a while and folded AxQd face up.

I don’t think you appreciate how awful your hand is, 6ways at 300bb effective

I guess you are misled by flopping bottom two, thinking this is a good hand.

By the river over half of the time another A or diamond will come and your hand will turn to dust.

Even if you get a clean runnout, if a lot of money goes in by the river, your hand will not be good.

Pot control is your friend when very deep. The best way to pot control is to check/call flop. If flop checks around you can go for two streets of value on turn/river.

If V2 calls your check-raise with Ax no diamond then he’s not pretty good, like you said. He’s a fish.

if he’s really good he shouldn’t even be betting Ax no diamond in the first place, 6ways.

Don't raise, you just get blown off your hand like you do here .. gotta fold now even though you might be 'ahead'. It's possible that they are blocking each other but you have a PF opener that c-bet/3-bets into two players on a wet Board, so bottom two just doesn't hold up very well when this deep.

You realize you only raised 70 into 120 with two players behind, eh? And now V2 is raising 200 into 360 .. these are some pretty good 'continue' prices but your hand is now looking for a unicorn event to take this down. I'm not sure what your raise looks like, but V2 is setting up a Turn shove if called. GL

Anyone else think we should be 3bet or folding this hand outta the sb this multiway?

Not at all. T9s is a good multiway hand. I think it's also the hand with the most equity vs aces.

I don't mind a flat or 3-bet here. OP hasn't indicated how V2 has responded to any of his 3-bets, if any have occurred.

We are bloating a pot OOP against a V who has 'had our number' today. I was going to suggest a seat change above, but I will here! Sometimes you have to push back against a Player and I'm fine with it here as it's an easy fold if it doesn't connect. Pushing back OOP OTF is a much harder task, be better off letting a bettor bet and evaluate each street as it goes AP. GL

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Nope it’s a terrible hand multi-way. When you hit two pair you can easily be dominated by A10 K10 Q10 J10 A9 K9 Q9 J9.you’ll almost never have the nut flush except when you hit the miracle straight flush. You’ll be at the bottom of some straights. Even if this flop wasn’t monotone any turn card that is a K Q J 8 7 6 sucks for you with 6 people seeing the flop and can complete someone’s hand. 3bet or fold imo.

I forgot an ace is bad too.

It's considered a multiway hand, whether or not it can make the nuts. You don't need to "either 3bet or fold multiway" with it.

OP, are you playing in Texas? If not, your V continuing ranges are way too wide in both the hands you've posted recently.

If so, mention it in your HHs, so posters know that you play in splashy games.

What card on the turn are you fist pump calling an all in here? There’s not one card in the deck. 6 ways villains can have any Ax any of the many draws. 9T is awful multi-way. Even if flop came 9 10 5 rainbow are you happy to get it all in 6 ways to the flop?

I was responding to you're question if T9s needs to be 3bet or folded pre when in a multiway pot

No, it's fine to flat.

You seem discouraged that you folded flop after he showed, so, it's probably important to realize that he could have played AQxd face up on the flop and your play is still a mistake.

Also in general, just think logically how HORRIBLE it is to take an aggressive action this deep, OOP, with 2 cards to come, multiway, without the nut card.

And that was V1. God knows what V2 had, but it was probably stronger than that.

I was discouraged while at the table, because I was hoping to get a chunk back from V2. After thinking it through, it really is a trivial fold, since I have no options after I get re-raised on the flop. Best case scenario is that I push and V2 folds some Kd hand or we flip against something similar.

I´m not playing in Texas, but in Latvia, some, I don´t know, 5000 miles from Texas. Games are not too splashy (and since the pandemic, the casino almost never spreads PLO any more, which is my game of choice, so I am forced to splash around in NLT), most villains seem to be exploitable, very different playing styles though. Some are very nitty pre, but in turn they, as far as I can tell from two sessions, tend to over-value one-pair hands. Some are prone to making big bluffs, some are not.

Regarding three-betting pre, that would most likely lead to a three or four-way pot where I am OOP, although V2 would probably four-bet a bit lighter against me than against other players at the table. If there were fewer players in the hand, I´d be more likely to three-bet, but I don´t really see that three-betting would accomplish anything. In general, V2 picked up that I open lightly and splash around too much pre, and three-bet me more often. He is also the only player to have four-bet me this session, both times I folded pre. I´d say he would never fold against a 3! here against me, with him having opened in EP and me being in the SB.

I disagree that T9s is a poor multi-way hand. Yeah, might not make many nutted hands, but how often do you need the nuts to win? And regarding that T95 board - against a player who overvalues overpairs, that flop is golden. If I can get 50-200BB in with top two against kings or queens on such a board, I´ll take my chances any day.

Thanks for the replies and opinions. They´ve been helpful and next time I will probably take a more passive route in a similar spot.

Don't confuse passive with most profitable.

You wouldn’t get him to fold pre but you are going 3 ways at the most post instead of 5. You now have initiative and are deep enough to utilize fold equity with a hand that barrels very well.

When we flat this multi-way from the small we would rather have 22-TT and suited Ax at various frequencies IMO.

I will mix in calls with this hand from LP or in short stacked tourney scenarios

The famous Latvian master Doyle Brunson warned explicitly in the SuperSystem about the perils of bottom-two pair. Yes, the book hasn't entirely aged well but this advice did.

Try to get to showdown