But it's also largely about what we lose when we don't have the nuts. And being OOP won't help in that regards.

Plus your IO might not be what you think they are. In this case here, a dood just folded TP2K with the 2nd nut flush draw. You get in 200bb postflop against guys like that with a lot of the "good" hands T9s can make, you're often toast.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yep it’s so dominated by hands people will call a raise with. Not to mention anytime you hit top two there’s going to be draws everywhere that will beat you on the turn. You’ll have zero idea if a K Q J A 8 7 or 6 completed a draw multi-way.

T9s (and other "suited connectors") are considered multiway hands in texas holdem, meaning it's ok to play it in a multiway pot. I would rather call with T9s pre multiway instead of calling with KQo by a long shot. We shouldn't try to re-invent the wheel by saying it needs to be raised or folded pre.

It's just ridiculous to fold hands this strong against a table of morons.

If that's the table we're playing at, fair enough.

I'll let OP decide if that's the case. FWIW, from OP's Hero description as well as the way the hand played out, it's possible we're the moron at this table.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

It's 1/3

Right. I keep forgetting that because it is live 1/3 NL live that every single table we play at we're the best player on it by a factor of 10, everyone else is a moron, and we can basically do whatever we want and still ship 12bb/hr.

FWIW, 1/3 NL is the only game that runs in my room, which is a double edged sword. On the plus side, this means I'm playing with the absolute worst players in my live poker pool. On the down side, it also means I'm playing with the absolute best players in my live poker pool (including those who are attempting to make a living at it). And on top of that you have deal with your typical LLSNL rake (the effects of which are magnified as the steaks / capped BIs decrease).

I'll let OP judge for himself where he sits in this particular table's ecosystem.

Gcarryon,ldoG

You're misunderstanding me, it doesn't mean they are morons in the classic sense. It means that we can quickly identify exactly what they are trying to do and how they do it quickly and relatively reliably which is worth a significant fraction of all the money on the table. I don't equate "1/3" with a bunch of whales splashing around, quite the opposite, it's usually a bunch of players trying to win, but doing so in a laughably easy-to-read fashion often making massive practical mistakes along the way. So, when you choose to fold T9s when you get to see a flop against 4 players that you know exactly what they do and do not do well, how they go about it, and can leverage all of that easily, well, taking 0ev is goddamn spew. If I sat with you for example, your strategy of playing ranges that are too strong/the same way will be punished - not a boast, but as far as I'm concerned playing against predictable strategies at a game of skill means that I can't ever pass up a profitable opportunity or else I'm punishing myself, which, is something a moron would do.

[we can quickly identify exactly what they are trying to do and how they do it quickly and relatively reliably[/QUOTE]

Lol. That's why we folded, bro.

Bottom two is a bluffcatcher on this board. I'm never raising here and I think it's terrible to do so. Think it's a trivial fold to the 3bet.

Lol. That's why we folded, bro.[/QUOTE]

Missed your point. WYM?

You do realize that the agro line we took significantly strengthens their ranges ya?

Could well be that I am the moron at the table, won´t deny it. I´m no pro and I´m not even a reg, the absolute maximum my business and family life allows me to play is once a week, often less. I play mainly to have fun, and although I am up a healthy chunk since starting to play after the pandemic restrictions in Europe have ended, all of that profit is due to a huge 5/10 (mostly 5/10/20) PLO game I played in the spring, since no other games were running when I showed up at the poker club (and most of that profit is from a hand where I got insanely lucky, where I hit a full house on both runouts on a TJQ flop w/ AKJTx in PLO vs AKxxx with double backdoor flush draws) - so yeah, I could very well be the moron, and I´m not really ashamed of it. And I´m not really interested in plugging what I perceive as my main preflop leak, which is playing too loose and too aggressive preflop.

With that said, I still believe I can hold my own in these games (based on a huge sample of two sessions). Mostly it comes down to making the right calls in the right postflop spots anyway, and I don´t really see that playing a GTO strategy is sound in these 1/3 games. I of course try to range my opponents and how they perceive my range when I am in pots, but at the same time you can´t get away from the fact that stacking off vs Player X with TPTK+ might be a good move on most boards even though GTO says otherwise (not saying that this is true in this hand).

With regards to this hand and my raise, I am more inclined to think that it might have been a mistake, though I´m not really sure if the net negative from that play is as huge as some posters believe it to be, as long as I am capable of folding when V2 comes over the top of my raise. As I wrote, if it goes call-call on the flop and check-check-bet on a blank turn, I can´t really fold and then I lose at least as much as in this spot, but I am playing with more limited information. Not saying that my raise is correct here - ir probably isn´t - but I don´t feel it´s as clear cut as some say it is.

Anyway, once again I thank you for the feedback I have gotten in that thread - it has given me a lot of food for thought.

FWIW, I don't think anyone mentioned GTO, nor do I think many would recommend it for these steaks.

As for being able to be "capable of folding", I mean, yeah, it helps to be able to fold when we're beat. However, a lot of the time a huge amount of damage has already been done. Bloating pots OOP with mediocre holdings is still going to be very expensive in the long run even if we never stack off. Here we lost a few bets plus didn't even get to realize our boat equity.

Gnothatin',justsomethingtoconsider,imoG