Quick background: First time I was at this poker room but I knew most of the players there from around town (all underground places). I'd been at the table for about 90 minutes. Had not shown down a single hand yet. My image was very TAG - even if this was not the case, but the other players noted on multiple occasions that I had not raised much. The other 8 players at the table were weak/tight or loose/aggressive. Most players had between 100-300 BBs in front of them. I sat with about $250 in front of me (started with $300) at the time of the hand in question:

Hero (UTG) ($250) - 22

Hero raises to $16 (standard raise at table)

UTG+1 (TAG) - just calls
UTG+2 (LAG) - calls
BB (very LAG, also the game-runner) - calls the extra $13.

Pot = $65

Flop:

A, 9, 2

This is a perfect flop for me, for obvious reasons. 4 players felt it fit to call a UTG raise from a perceived TAG player, the flop brings an Ace and I have bottom set on a rainbow board with no likely draws. Beautiful, right?

My options?

a. Check-raise (I'll answer this now: no.)
b. Check-call any bet
c. Lead out for 1/2 pot or less
d. Lead for 3/4 pot or more

I hesitate to check-call any bet because this could easily allow the three players behind me to check and see a free card. I like my set, but it could easily lose if I allow free cards at this point. I rule out check-raising because that just kills any action and prevents me from doubling or tripling through.

In light of the above, I led out for $45...

Given that info, what should I have done here among my four options?

I don't think betting here is terrible, but I like a check/call better. With 3 other players in the pot, it is likely that at least one of them has an A. Since you describe them all as aggressive players, it is pretty likely that one of them will bet an A if they connected with the flop. Assuming they bet around $45, you can call and leave yourself about $190 with a pot size of around $145. With less than 2 PSB here, you can comfortably get it in on the turn or river (especially if someone else calls on the flop). If it checks around on the flop, you can make a PSB on the turn and get it in on the river.

Edit: Don't worry about giving a free card here. There are no draws on the board, and it may give someone a hand that will get it in vs. you. Since you've completely under-repped your hand to this point, you can be aggressive if someone seems to hit a card they like on the turn.

Just lead out for 3/4 like you did and ~1/2 psb turn and river should let you get it in on the river. If they have something here they will pay you off on at least 1 or 2 streets, and if they don't then it doesn't matter how you play it, you're unlikely to make much. If you check-call then wake up on later streets it makes your hand somewhat obvious to anybody who is paying attention.

Well, you were the pfr so +1 to what dimi06 says. If you had limp/called then more options (traps) are available. But then again the board is dry as a bone...your risk of damage from a free card is minimal, but I would say bet (1/2 to 3/4 pot) because you want to build the pot.

People live love to call with Ax. They aren't folding to a flop bet. Bet it.

That said, raising 22 in EP pf in a typical 1/2 game is a leak.

If they are all this bad, raising 22 UTG is very -EV.

As played flop is a cbet ldo.

No I don't think you overplayed your hand; although I would have lead out for about 2/5 the pot to make it feel like a continuation on your pfr. I would never check raise in this position b/c you want to conceal the strength of your hand while building the pot. More over I wouldn't let a free card peel off here regardless of the dry board b/c anyone one of the LAG with A rag is going to dance with you; there are no real upside to letting a free card peel off in this situation. All you need to do is win this pot 1/3 of the time to make a profit at this table.

obvious cbet is obvious

Fold pre but yeah my standard would be to c/c

Please explain this one to me. I had an image as a TAG player at the table and was exploiting it. I can't wait for AA all the time so I raised UTG with a made hand and played it as if I had KK/QQ. Why is 22 a leak UTG whereas raising with suited connectors or 88 or KQ wouldn't be? This isn't a table where I can wait for top 10 hands and still show a profit. At some point I have to play poker, right?

If I have a habit of raising pre and the check/folding, sure that's a leak, but no one here would ever put me on 22 in this spot. That's the beauty of it.

Suited connectors play better post-flop. Basically, if you get called in a few spots, you always have to turn 22 into a bluff unless you flop a set.

Raising 22 UTG is a leak at this table because you are going to get called by a bajillion (yes bajillion) people and unless you flop a set you will be drawing dead. No one in this game is aware of your TAG image as much as you want them to be, and no one is positionally aware enough to understand that a raise UTG by a TAG means a monstah. Limp to set mine, if you get raised behind you make sure you have good IO before you call, which you almost certainly will because there will be 3-4 players to the flop in a raised pot, = great IO.

As played cbet flop and let all the weak aces and KK-TT and maybe even 9x's call you, then get it in on turn and riv.

I fully realize that 22 becomes a bluff post-flop without a set, but by raising pre-flop I do have theoretical "control" of the hand and this is a table where the players do pay attention to image (it's an underground room with regulars who for the most part know what they are doing, not a touristy casino room).

So on that note... what's so bad about essentially bluffing with 22 here assuming I whiff the flop?

(I'm really not trying to be a prick about this, I just do not see the "leak" aspect about playing 22 - or any two cards - aggressively UTG. As always, I am trying to learn/understand!)

Hopefully you see why getting called by a bajillion people is a good thing when you hold a small pocket, much better than getting called by 2-3 people. Getting reraised sucks and you usually have to give up your hand unless it's a minrr.

The main "leak" aspect is you are out of position with a weak hand.

There will be boards (single high card, three low cards) which you will like enough to be able to c-bet. Sometimes you will check/fold, that's no big deal - as long as you don't dig yourself a c-bet hole, the occasional raise of a speculative hand utg is ok. But I would not do it as default. 1) you are out of position and that has obvious disadvantages, 2) with a hand like this, you would like to be able to invite more people in and when you flop a set you want someone else to have the initiative until you pull the trigger.

Exercise: think about raising J-10 offsuit utg. What have you to gain? To lose?

I see what you are saying. I guess my perspective is that in my attempt not to play to a particular pattern at the table, I believe it is +EV to raise with 22 UTG in certain circumstances. It's not an "always" or "never" or even a "most of the time" situation, and this would also apply to your J/10o thought exercise. Position is important - greatly so - but I also cannot just sit back and wait for top ten hands when I am not likely to get paid off when I do get those beautiful aces. I also cannot outright refuse to play any hands UTG unless I have QQ+. That just strikes me as overly ABC (and thus "-EV").

Of course, if I always raised with 22 when in EP, yeah, that's a "leak" for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is that I become predictable and weak.

raising 22 utg is minus EV in this game.

Depending on how aggressive and creative the villains are, i either check flop
or bet like $20 on flop. I give villains all the rope they need to get hung. Of course if they are superfish and will call 2 bets and a shove with AQ, then by all means load up and fire all 3 brrls.

Open-raise UTG with 22 is -EV

However,

What? check/call the flop with a set

Never slow play a flopped set! Nobody knows you have a monster anyway, therefore, it is stupid to conceal the strength of your hand. Backing off to a raise and then check-raising on the turn is a valid strategy (although not necessarily best). I do not back off when there is a third suited card on board. I feel that I have enough outs to disregard the possibility of a made flush against me. If you lose with a set, you'll lose a lot of money. If you don't, you are not playing your sets correctly.

Anyway, always lead with a flopped set.

Anyway, always lead with a flopped set.[/QUOTE]




have a question for you. Would this flop be about the prime number one flop texture to cbet air???

And once you answer that, then why say "always bet this flop" with a nut hand that is so far WA that it is a joke.

They expect you to c-bet. When you don't and you check/call instead, they will suspect one of two things: high pocket pair that is scared of the Ace, or a trap. The weak/tights will fear a trap and proceed cautiously, whereas the loose-aggressives might try one or two bets before figuring out what you have. If you want to set a trap, I'd prefer c-bet, then check the turn. But even that will probably not earn as much as bet/bet/bet.

well, the way i break it down is this. None of the villains are listed as FISH.
TAG right behind us, and two lags at the end, but all see hero as TAG UTGR.

A 9 4

Villains ranges are gonna be AQ, AJss ATss, SC, All pairs TT-, maybe some AXs KQ QJss QTss , 9x suited hands, maybe some 4x suited hands, etc.

If hero cbets this flop into 3 strange players, how much of these ranges between ALL 3 others, is going to play past a flop call? And if hero bet bet bet line, how much of all total ranges payoff here?

However, if hero checks, or bets something weird like $30, then LAGS can get all sorts of creativity going, and no telling what could happen. Hell, even allowing KQ to turn a K is going to net money that would have folded. Im saying that too much of the entire ranges fold to big flop bets here and alternative / creative methods should be employed at least a fair % of time on this specific flop.

If hero were to check this flop and it checked thru, then the T falls on turn making a FD, and hero fires BIG on the turn, hero gets called by all Tx i say, plus hero will be put on a draw very often and get paid by even possible turn floats from lags. This seems so elementary yet the consensus here just wants to raise always preflop, and cbet damn near everything on the flop. I can explain why i do what i do, can you explain how vs the boatload range that we are against here, that we guarantee ourselves good payouts? And from how big of the range overall?

If we had AA then maybe you could argue checking, but with bottom set on a an Ahi boards of all boards, checking doesn't seem best to me. We can bet really small over 3 streets still getting the $$ in and prob have some fish call us down w/TT. If you have some read that once you check a certain player will go crazy although unlikely as its not HU, then by all means check.

Aintnolimit, you you seem to FPSy for live 1/2 IMO. Bet, bet, betting is 9/10 times the best play.

i dont play live 1/2 so you might be right. But if you cannot dissect the ranges and tell what you expect to happen with them, then you are only jabbing me with FPS talk, instead of letting me know how your bet bet bet line will do better than a line created to take advantage of the majority of range that villains miss this board with.

Well we all know that fish play nearly every A so lets exploit that by bringing them to valuetown. There are 4 people in the pot so lets get as much $$ that we can out of their Ax, 9x and pairs 99+ now before the flop gets worse.

If this was HU I might check vs certain opponents because it seems we can still get the $$ in over 2 streets anyways.

hmmm where is the word fish in OPs first post? 9x will pay about the same amount of streets, whether flop or turn bet. Same as 4x. But im not here to convince you.

lol all live players are fish bro, where you been at?

Looking back on it though, I didnt realise that the pot was so big on the flop and that the PFR was so huge. Checking flop is fine here IMO.