I'll just repost this instead of explaining why your comment was troll.

KQ make sense, KK and QQ make sense as well those hands are well capable of flatting pre, calling with KK and QQ on flop to see a safe turn since pretty wet board and overvalue on river when hit. Hes never taking that line with T9 or AT or busted flush draw and if hes a decent player hes probably not crazy enough to overbet jam 400 into the postflop aggressor as a bluff.

I think you played this hand pretty much perfectly on all streets as long as you decided to fold the river.

Him betting $400 into a pot of $265, yes you do have a full house but unfortunately an overbet of this size on the river given the board texture and described villain is almost always a nut hand.

Well played!

I really like your breakdown of Villain's range and how Villain could have played this hand. This, along with other posts, provides solid reasoning behind making a tough fold.

After reading your responses, I have a couple questions about how we could play this hand AS VILLAIN with busted flushes or hands that we can effectively turn into bluffs (AQ, Q10, A10, 9/10). For instance, if we can comfortably defend with the aforementioned hands AND:

1. We are heads up on the river
2. We held hands that could conceivably call pre, flop, and turn
3. We know you are a thinking player
4. We know your stack off range here is near nutted (many of you seem to advocate folding Jacks full here)

Why can't we profitably turn many of our hands into bluffs as well as overbet shove Queens full? I mean sure your betting range is strong on the flop and turn here, but if we know you can fold this river, aren't we able to use this to our advantage?

I could see how that play might look like pure spew, but if I know you're capable of folding Jacks full here, won't people put you in tough spots on most ugly runouts?

Forgive me if this post sounds like a bunch of nonsense, but it has been a while since I've looked over a hand history. All feedback is greatly appreciated (especially from Mr. Buzz and GG).

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This is a fantastic question, and one that probably falls primarily under the category of dynamic building, or the history between Hero and Villain. OP refers to a single instance against a somewhat unknown player, with a specific read of overcalling the preflop raise and quickly check/calling OTF and OTT and shoving that river. All of these things together are what allow us to fold jacks full.

Now, if Villain had been playing very often with a particular opponent and have shown you're able to bluff busted draws, turn hands into bluffs for thin value, and so on, then Hero would likely not be folding JJ in this spot to Villain. For example if hero double barrels a large portion of his range on this board and villain can be check/calling with any FD or hand such as JT, and hero, knows this, he can shove QT for value OTR expecting to sometimes get bluffcatched by AK.

To be honest I really did consider folding. But I just couldnt pull the trigger on the fold. I think I should have thought about it a bit more on the river. I gave myself maybe 10 seconds before saying to myself "am I really going to fold this hand....." then called

if you all really fold this hand spoiler free then wow well played. I don't see anybody putting the 32 combinations of flopped straights in his hand though and that really surprises me because I think he can have a few of them there, enough that I want originally to snap up the river. I can see where the fold crew is coming from now but yow he doesn't need many "value bet worse" combos to swing it even if we dismiss any bluffs

Overbet shoving the eighth nuts (AT straight) on a paired board OOP into a player that has been showing strength/aggression after the board pairs on the river would fall somewhere between "terrible" and "awful" in my book.

Since OP's read is that V has been playing solidly and showing down winners, we can safely remove turning a straight into a bluff from V's potential river shove range. The more likely way for described V to play the straight would have been to raise at some point in the hand and/or bet/fold this river for a 1/2 - 3/4 PSB. A shove on a paired board only gets called by better which makes shoving with a straight pointless and bet/folding the optimal play.

Furthermore, it's much more difficult to bluff the river with a busted flush draw when you are OOP, especially when hero has the initiative and is betting. It would actually be easier to bluff the river when the flush hits and you are OOP.

And finally, since V is described as solid, he would know that if he did want to bluff the river, he would need to bet no more than pot *at most* and could possibly get away with something as little as 3/4 PSB. Shoving is just lighting anything over pot on fire.

Add it all up and you get an overbet shove range comprised entirely of value hands. And since our boat is made up of 3 cards lower than the high card and pair on board, which are all Broadways, and this is a raised pot and V is in the small blind this becomes a trivial instamuck.

How many nights have we value bet the heck out of the mouth breathers to get the"thinking" players to believe we're "solid," and punished those thinkers on semi dirty boards simply because we know they have a fold button (and a pretty big one at that)?

How often do we patronize these "solid" players for making good folds?

All I'm saying is if you're capable of this advanced thinking, why aren't your opponents capable of the type of thinking I describe?

I've yet to hear your take on players capable of playing different opponents differently and would like to hear your input, as well as others.

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What if Villain NEVER bluffs busted draws or turns hands into bluffs vs. the rest of the table since they don't have a fold button? Perhaps you'll convince yourself he just ALWAYS has it against you?

I totally understand the reasoning for folding here, but every once in a while I want to see if opponents like this are willing to play ME different than they would play others. This hand isn't ideal to play sheriff on, but I'd sure like to find out sooner or later if he is.

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Lol at trivial instamuck man, come on. Rest of your post is good but again villian only needs to be betting worse or bluffing lots of possible whiffed draws very rarely vs. never to swing this to a call. I think you guys have shown it's a more of a sigh call than a snap but I'm not sure I'm gonna find a fold here next time I am in a spot like this which thankfully is almost never

In game, it can be tough, but you needed to take a deep breath, relax, and take your time. You should have calculated your pot odds. Then you should have realized that for you to call, Villain needs to be either value betting worse or turning his hand into bluff. To value bet worse, he needs to have x/c twice with the nuts or thinks AQ is golden (makes little sense as AQ never getting called by worse). To be bluffing, he has to be turning a nut flush draw into a bluff. Many Villains have enough random spew to make this decision tricky in the moment.

Your read: "Villain is playing pretty solid poker showing down strong hands." Consider how poorly and passively he played this hand. He turned down a squeeze to call in the SB multi-way with QJo. He x/c bottom two with flush draw out there. He snap x/c bottom two on the turn with 2 flush draws on the board and you weren't the preflop raiser. He should think your range should be something like KQ,KJ,QJ,AT,flush draws, maybe AK, and maybe JJ. You should be betting the turn always with everything that is ahead of him and often you'd be checking behind with your draws. So, he's calling the turn hoping he's ahead when he very likely isn't, and presumably he's x/c river on a blank. For his river jam to be correct, and it may be correct AP, he needs you to call with AT more than 25% of the time. (would you have called with AT?)

New read: "doesn't play trash, passive, positionally unaware, weak understanding of relative hand strength"?

Grunch.

The snap call OTT makes me believe he has almost exclusively AT, KQ, QJ, 9Ts hands.

If he had Ax suited, or AK this is a call but rarely a snap call.

The river over shove is a puke situation. Based on the way the hand played I think we can chalk it up to a cooler.

Classic spot where u really cant beat any real value bets but ur hand seems to strong to fold.

Often we call such Spots because we dont want to get bluffed off of such a strong hand, even if we know deep inside we are probably beat.

Still to make this fold would be really on world class Niveau in terms of discipline, even more so since the river feels like gin (or Jin??) card for us and then suddenly his huge bet raises our doubts.

I would call for sure .

One more thing.... From my expirience I can say that a snap call on such a board is almost always a draw or like in this case, two pair or something on a scary board and almost never nuts or nearly nuts.
V thinks his hand is too strong to fold yet for one bet or he can make a good flush.
Really almost always this kind of hands.

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easy fold
because
villain is playing pretty solid poker showing down strong hands

I agree it's a cooler. It's close, yes, but I am calling.

For people saying it's an easy fold, here's a thought experiment.

Let's say you are both hero and villain in the hand.

You're saying that you as villain cannot value bet QJ because you as hero cannot call with any worse hands, right? JJ is the next best hand. Let's ignore the possibility that check/something might be the better line as villain. Does it make sense that you as villain cannot value bet with QJ vs. you as hero?

Seems kind of silly to me.

This is a pretty good point, but most villains at this level will be blinded by "I's got fullhouse, I haz nuts". Also, just cuz we're unlikely to call with a straight doesn't mean that he shouldn't value bet hands that beat straights.

The bottom line for me is this: Villain put in 133bbs in on the river. We should all keep track of how often we see this much put in on the river as a bluff or with a mediocre hand (which a straight on this type of board is). It just doesn't happen.

Gseriously,itjust.doesn't.happenG

Oh yeah, I 100% agree we can value bet this against almost everyone.

But the thought experiment is that you are both villain AND hero in the hand. If you fold as hero, you cannot value bet as villain.

It's kind of a circular point... but it's another way to look at it.

Ya, but I also know that I'm a losing player at a table full of me's due to rake anyways.

Ginbefore"you'realosingplayeranyways"G

Grunch:

This is an obvious fold against a solid player, no? The only hand we beat are a flopped straight, and AQ, QT which really doesn´t make any sense. His bet is soo large on the river I think I can fold here pretty easily. Before I did it I would angle him, tell him I have ''jacks full'', see if he reacts. Unless his reaction clearly shows he was overplaying his hand, I´m folding and obv. not showing my cards.


Edit: Like others have said, bet more on flop, turn to set up credible river shove.

AT surely would have bet or raised the flop or turn. Someone who just called with T9 on the turn, ain´t shoving this river.

A solid player with AK or AQ is not shoving this river, more of a check/puke call or fold.