1/3

V1 - Straight forward loose rec player. Overplays hands like TPWK and would categorize as LAG, however not the bluffing style just the spew/overvalue his hand type.

V2 - Medium passive reg. Only bets/raises with nuts or close to it. Plays hands essentially face up. But will call down semi light.

V3 - Tight aggressive reg pre and post, however will often limp to wide pre with marginal hands. Also plays hands essentially face up.

*Tons of history with V2/V3 and they see hero as TAG winning player. However, has been relatively aggressive pre this session and showed down some questionable hands (i.e. called an odd shove earlier from a 120 stack with pocket 10's and V1 made a remark about that being a pretty ballsy call with only 10's. Hero showed pair of 10s and other hand mucked). V1 probably views hero as LAG

Onto the hand. Probably a trivial situation but just brushing up on these combo draw situations. Also I know many will recommend folding pre but with some of the V's being 150bb's+ i believe a call is +EV

UTG Loose Passive (250) - limps
EP V2 (500) - limps
MP V3 (200) - limps
CO Tight Passive (400) - limps
Hero BTN (500) -limps 57
SB v1 (90) - calls
BB TAG OMC (200) - Checks

Flop (16)
A23

V1 bets 13
BB folds
UTG folds
v2 calls
v3 calls
co folds
Hero?

V1 I would range A2-AJ, 22,33,23,45
V2 I would range flush draws, A4-Ak
V3 I would range AJ,AQ, and flush draws.

My default thought was just to put in a raise to 60, however with v1's stack size make it a little awkward. If he shoves it possibly gets called by a higher FD from v2/v3 making my hand dead to a 4. Best route: Raise/Call/Fold?

I'm also overlimping preflop.

I would simply call the flop. Part of the real power in a flush draw + gutshot is the FE we have by pushing it hard; but we're up against 3 opponents, I simply don't see us having that much FE here. Also, none of our outs are to the nuts; if we hit the turn, we're actually probably going to have to play quite cautiously (i.e. don't stack off in a limped pot). And while there is a decent amount of money in the pot for a limped pot, it's not like huge money relative to stacks where we're pretty cool with getting our chips in with (hopefully) good equity. We're being given great 4:1 odds and will be in position on the turn to ensure money will go in if we see fit.

GmrpassiveG

This is a raise. If it looks like your hand might be up against multiple opponents and drawing thin, you'll just have to fold.

I really hate calling here. Our flush outs are garbage in a 4-way pot. Do you really want to make a 7-high flush with 450 left in effective stacks? There are a lot of opponents, but it's not likely that any of them have nut hands that will stand a big turn bet on this board. And if they do, we have plenty of outs. Step 1 is to clear out the riffraff with a substantial raise.

Just call. I would consider raising had hero been PFR.

So you want to fold out worse hands, not bink a flush, bink a straight, and then get value?

There's really no need to bloat this pot and turn our hand into a bluff.

Pot will be $70 if we call. If we hit, against V1's shortstack we'll easily commit. Against the midstack of V3, it'll admittedly be dicey. Against deep V2 (who plays face up) we shouldn't get in *too* much trouble (we're going to lose some chips to a better hand, but we definitely shouldn't lose our stack).

Do you think someone folds a flush draw here enough of the time to a raise?

GnotinanygameIplayG

We don't need to take it down now to win. If we raise it to $70 or so, we should get one caller most of the time. If we bet $150 on the turn (amount depends a bit on who the caller is), that person will usually fold. If they don't, maybe we'll make the winning hand on the river.

EDIT: I'm not entirely sure how to make this point without sounding like a dick, so I'll just do my best. It's often a good thing to step back and think about how we make money in the game. If we just flat the flop bet and see if we make a flush, basically we will have played this hand exactly the same as a fish. (And we will probably end up playing the rest of the hand the same as the fish on most runouts.) That doesn't mean the line is necessarily wrong, but it does means that this is not a spot that's making us money in the game. Getting dealt 75s and flopping good with it are not skills at which we excel. And if big draws in position are not hands that are making us money in the game, I'm surprised. We should be questioning why we're even playing a marginal hand if a top 5% flop is not a moneymaker for us.

Go ahead and make it $50. If V1 shoves, he's not closing out the action and the other villians have to worry about you re shoving and will likely fold most draws that beat you, leaving you head up with good equity. If he calls, everyone else over calls and you likely get to see a free river card if you want. The problem with flatting is that your draws are super obvious and neither is to the nuts. So you get into a lot of awkward situations where either everyone folds or you get into situations where you have no idea where you are.

IMO, a large part of the reason we make money in this game is cuz we're able to fold hands when opponents make a better one while our opponents aren't able to do this. So this enables us to play our super draw here passively just like the fish. If we make our baby flush and the face up guy donks into 3 people on the turn, we fold; if the roles were reversed, he'd call our donk, and this difference is where all our money is made.

Also not sure why this top 5% flop "is not a moneymaker for us" by simply flatting? We're getting immediate odds of 4:1. *If* our outs are clean, we have probably ~50% equity, and thanks to our position (another reason we make more money than our opponents because we're much more likely to be in position with this hand than they are) the face up players will probably let us know how we are doing in this multiway pot on the turn.

FWIW, I don't hate the raise. I'm just not convinced it is better than flatting in this particular case. I would probably lean a lot more towards raising if this were HU (much less likely we're dominated, more FE, more likely to have turn options) and/or the pot was a lot larger compared to stacks.

GtwocentsG

I like a call on the flop. A raise won't fold enough of their ranges, and some of their ranges crush us. I would hate to have to fold to a re-raise (and I would fold). See a turn.

Pre is fine

I hate calling but I also hate raising this flop against this many opponents. The nut flush draw is never folding and I would hate to get shoved on by anything really.

I would likely call and play uber cautious if the flush comes in.

We don't make money by folding; we actually lose a lot of money by drawing to a hand and folding when we make it. The fact that our opponents lose even more with 75s is really an argument for playing Axs. That's how we profit from the villains paying off with small flushes.

You might be right about calling having better EV than raising (although I doubt it), but if that's true, why are we even in this pot? We're not making nearly enough money here to pay for our PF call the 95% of the time we hit a worse flop and have to fold.

It's actually a kind of crappy situation. If a 4 falls and you get substantial action, it's because someone has 56 or at best a chop situation. If a spade falls and you get substantial action, it's because someone has a better flush. You've got three people interested in this pot ... I think it's 50-50 one of them has a better flush draw.

Would anyone consider folding here?

If we don't make more / lose less money overall than our opponents here playing 75s, then I absolutely agree: we shouldn't be playing it.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the second statement is a lot like the statement "If we called preflop with xx, hit, and then aren't willing to get the money in, then why the heck did we call with it to begin with?", which is a pet peeve of mine. Let's take the example of overlimping multiple limpers with 55 on the button. Scenario 1: KT5ss board, an incredibly active loose payoff fish donks and is raised by another incredibly active loose payoff fish. Scenario 2: 765ss board, a very nitty player donks and is raised by another very nitty player. Both times, we hit our hand we were limping in to hit, but I certainly hope the board / opponents / action also informs our decision, no?

GtwocentsG

If the 3 opponents that happened to be left in the field were all wizards (lets say all the fish folded), then yes, I think this would have to be a consideration. In this particular spot, V1 is labelled as overvalueing hands / spewy, V2 plays face up and will call down light, while V3 is face up. I think against these guys we can make our decision on the turn card / action.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Grunch:

Pre flop is fine.
Peel the flop.
Bet all straights and flushes on any street.
Peel with correct direct odds and a little bit of implied odds (if your implied odds rely on you getting less than a 1/3 PSB on the river) on all turn cards that do not pair the ace.
Do not bluff any card.
Profit.

I raise to $80, and if I get only 1 caller I am going to shove the turn or 3 barrel 100%(depending on which stack size calls me), and Our hand has so much equity + fold equity. Sure it's gonna hurt when it doesn't work, but not a whole lot of hands can call you down.

Would I be right in thinking that the thing that makes this a tough spot is V1's stack size? (that's what would give me the problem anyway)

I'm also over limping in this spot. (never raising pre)

How does OP think V's 2 and 3 would react to a PS raise? Are they still paying to chase a draw here? Could they put you on a good combo draw?

This gives you a good idea of how well 75s flops in a multi-way pot. Well under 5% of the time you'll have a hand strong enough to value-bet on the flop.



Most of the time you flop something it'll be like this. You'll be putting your money in behind and hoping when your obvious draw hits that someone with a worse hand will pay you off.

With this flop looking ahead to the turn only about 6% of the time will Hero have 70% equity.

There's no IO on the wheel and way more RIO on the spade than IO, I'd fold, if you made me get to the flop. I'd fold pre.

Grunch

PF is fine but I sometimes like raising as well.

I'm raising this flop, almost a PSB. Very few hands are going to feel comfortable calling, and I want to push out higher flush draws or stupid 56o type hands that make our draws have RIO. If we take it down with 7 high, great. If we fold out better draws and only made hands stay in, fantastic, we can check behind the turn in position if needed.