eff 200, H utg straddles 7 - utg+1, HJ, CO called 7, V on btn raises to 43 (straddles +15), i called with ATh as did UTG+1. Flop was 863 rainbow, H checks, utg+1 checks, V jams and hero folds.

Is this a 3b? I figured if villain has a real hand he’ll just jam and I’m behind everything TT+ so i called thinking I need to catch up on the flop essentially, but i thought that might be a bad line of thinking.

I wouldn’t call out of position here for that large a percentage of your stack. Either stick it in pre or fold depending on villian. Likely fold.

I think I woulda just jammed pre, you only have 64 bb's, and might even get the button to fold too. I think we're ahead of him pre.

I’m gii vs this squeeze + his short. Only folding if villain is a proper nit

Fold not closing the action. Probably flipping with BTN range. But it's jam or fold for sure.

Thanks folks. Knew i did it wrong. He was an older gentleman and I had only seen him open raise AK AQ and 88 previously so I think it was a fold rather than a jam just based on the info i had

Generally it’s not good to call 25% of your stack pre with Ace-hi unless you have a good reason to do so. This is not such a scenario. I think there’s a tendency for players to tighten up when a straddle is involved. So some of the limpers can have AJ-AK at full frequencies. Finally, BTN should be raising tight here for the same reason.

Basically, I don’t think you dominate any of the hands BTN would raise in this spot. And the limpers can dominate you a good chunk of the time.

Argument could be made to jam once in a while but I’d want some reads on the BTN before advocating such a play.

I wouldn't straddle.

We can't call preflop for lol a ~quarter of our stack just hoping to hit something on the flop. If Button is super aggro then there is some argument for a ship, but otherwise this is a trivial fold for me.

Flop looks obvious.

ETA: After reading who we're up against and what he has opened with, I'd be snap folding AQ here. There is just no way this guy is getting out-of-line versus 4 opponents with this large bet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Can i ask why you wouldn’t straddle? I only recently started playing live and happened to run it up early the other day so was trying different stuff e.g. straddling. I have found that 1/3 players can be tight or limp from EP which feels like a waste of time so i was experimenting with the straddle clearly with mixed results.

You're putting in money blind in a horrible position. In a vacuum, do you think that is going to be profitable long term?

The only benefits you could really argue for is giving the image of an action player or keeping the action players happy. Highly doubt these reasons actually hold water.

GcluelessstraddlevirginnoobG

Each individual straddle action is almost surely -EV for the reasons that GG stated.

But there are absolutely meta-game reasons to want to straddle. For instance suppose you have an edge on the table and everyone agrees to a round of straddles, but you are the only player who declines. You are encouraging the table to play lower stakes while you have an edge versus the field. That’s undoubtably -EV.

Typically I’ll straddle a few times when I first sit at 1/2 or 2/5. If nobody matches me, I stop. If a fun player straddles I always straddle on my next opportunity. I want to match the energy of the table. If we can get straddles going on a good fraction of pots, I think it’s overall a +EV move. I’m playing in weak games. Raising the stakes by a factor of 2 in a good fraction of my hands is gonna have a positive impact my winrate when there are weak players at the table.

Great, appreciate that - thank you.

I've never straddled a single hand in 5268 hgurs of 1/3 NL. And yet our game offers both UTG and Button straddles, and a decent percentage of pots are straddled. i.e. It is highly unlikely our decision to not straddle will have any affect whatsoever on whether others do.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

We need to get you out to Texas, GG,, and show you a what a fun poker game is like

Getting people to straddle is good for the game. If I can raise the stakes and adjust to a new stack depth more effectively than my opponents then I certainly try to encourage that.

Which makes it good for you but not necessarily good for the game. In my experience it is often bad for the game at the smaller limits as it can drive out people that want to play that limit. YMMV

I realize this is in jest, but I'm not sure if my point came across: I've never straddled, and yet I sit in a game where lots of pots are straddled. i.e. There is no need to "get" people to straddle cuz they'll do it all on their own.

GcluelessstaddlevirginnoobG

Yeah, I got the point. I was just playfully pointing out that our games types are different. Straddling can be +EV situationally in my game but -EV in your game.

For an explicit example a couple weeks ago I was sitting at a table with two action players to my left, and both wanted to put on a straddle. But my card room only allows UTG+2 straddle if a UTG+1 and UTG straddle are both in place. So I put on the 2bb straddle, naturally, and then the 4bb and 8bb straddles went on as well. My action contributed to 12bb of dead money in the pot, clearly a +EV move.

There is a single guy at my card room who refuses to straddle ever. Even if the rest of the table agrees to straddle, he refuses. This despite the fact that he’s a multi-millionaire and always buys in for 500bb. He proudly tells people he has never straddled once in his 40 years of playing poker. Basically he’s a nit, and he refuses to straddle as a troll (he can afford it, and he’s always eager to play in the biggest games in the room). Because he’s a huge nit, he’s not invited to any of the big private games. So that’s a -EV move in his case.

At the same time, I recognize that sometimes straddling kills the action in a game. Especially if there are players who are uncomfortable raising the stakes. Maybe those players start limping hands they would otherwise 3x raise in a straddled game.

I realize in this anecdote that the guy would still be a nit even if he straddled from time to time.

But a blanket refusal to ever straddle does imply you are a nit.

And people do joke about his refusal to straddle and this is certainly a contributing factor to
(a) some action players never giving him action,
(b) him being banned from private games

GG, just to be clear, my comments above are meant to respond to this point: I am telling you these reasons do hold water in my games.

And beyond that, there are clear reasons to want to encourage the table to straddle, as I mentioned in my original comment. Doubling the stakes of a game is good if you have a skill edge. It is difficult to encourage the table to straddle if you refuse to do so yourself

Edit: To be clear, the above comment is meant to refute your “only benefits to straddling are…” sentence.

1) ATs .. Looks pretty, but probably a toss against this V unless you can count on 1-3 others coming along (table dynamic). My issue is that you aren't going to get paid most of the time and you also get forced out OTF like you did here when you miss.

2) Straddle .. there are plenty of straddle threads out there, but I do straddle 'a lot' mostly from the B, but also from in front depending on who is to my right. I'm aggro with super high VPiP and IMO I'm forcing the Players to narrow their 'limping' range because they know I'm popping things PF a lot. And it pretty much also corresponds to a narrowing of the range that they open with as well. Whatever I can do to narrow their ranges allows me more freedom to operate with a wider range.

Yes, some (card) Players don't like it and table change away .. bye to them, get me some poker players over here. If they remain at the table and they are 'uncomfortable' then that will lead to mistakes.

When you straddle and have a tight Player who limps, then I can shut down PF and actually see the Flop cheaper than a normal open, then I've got the whole deck to work with against their 'raising' range. Plenty of times a tight Player will complain after a hand that 'I didn't do my job and raise (for them)' thus causing them to lose the hand somehow. This happens even without a straddle if I'm in LP and they try to limp UTG or similar expecting me to 'do my thing' and open 'for them'. So I get to see a Flop cheaper, which means they lose value when they would open at a 'normal' table.

The straddle discussion will roll on forever and I'm not going to sit here and say it's not -EV, but I am going to say that it's not 'as' -EV as some make it out to be under certain table conditions due to the 'savings' a high VPiP Player can see against some of the tighter Players.

Whenever you can get Players to narrow their ranges .. that should be good for you in the long run. And yes, it's at a cost, but it's up to you to determine if the cost is worth it with the Players you have at the table. If you have 2-3 other aggro, high VPiP raising Players at the table then a UTG straddle is not good at all since you 'should' end up folding quite often and the B straddle may entice you to enter bloated pots, albeit in position.

There are a lot of 'tools' in poker, nothing says you have to use them all the time .. only when they apply. GL

Bc of stack size I agree with folding pre flop. If I was ok with gambling a little bit I would look for a worse hand to sneak in there with. I probably shouldn't say this here in regards to straddle but there are for sure strategic reasons to straddle. I used to straddle 10 utg and btn at 2/5 Bellagio and aria mgm, Ballys etc. Fun times.

I’m with gg on the straddle issue. I don’t know why everyone thinks it increases action and is an advantage for skilled players, but that is what people say. Maybe I’d like it better if we could increase the max buy ins.

1. When the straddle is on we have to reduce our open raising ranges, not increase them. Don’t you agree? This is just like the idea that we can widen our open range when our raise size is smaller. We can have a wider range when opening for 2.5x than when opening for 3.5x.

2. Many players respond to the straddle and the reduced effective stacks by limping rather than raising so I see many multi-way limped pots, like 5 way hands, where the best made hand wins, which does not favor the more skilled players it simply favors the hand that flops best.

3. When the straddle is on and there are limpers and the pot is raised, it has to be a big raise and this creates a low SPR on the flop. Low SPR flops turn into 1 or 2 streets of action before all in, reducing the skilled players advantage. This kind of poker is similar to the mid to late stages of a tournament.

So I actually play less in a game that is constantly straddled, not more, and the opportunities to use a skill advantage are fewer not greater. Just my opinion.

'I' don't want 'You' to play hands with me .. you know the game and you're pretty decent at it. So, as the Straddler, when you enter a hand I know your range is strong and can play accordingly. Otherwise I have exactly what I want .. Players that are more likely to make mistakes entering too many pots who may feel more obligated to continue in bloated pots as opposed to limp-call 'normal' pots. Or we have the dream scenario where they over-fold in pots they should continue with based on 'simple' poker maths.

So thank you for lowering your VPiP and/or getting that table change so I don't have to deal with you .. so to speak. (I welcome all types of Players at my table!) GL

GG seemed to be arguing there are no games on the planet earth where straddling is good for your winrate.

GG has also never played in a 1/3 game where the average stack is 500bb and there are many loose action players who will raise over a straddle with too-wide ranges.

Idk why GG is making blanket statements when his experiences are so limited.

Straddling is not unequivocally bad.

You made some good points against straddles but you’re missing the arguments in favor of straddling, and many of your points don’t apply at all in loose deep games.