I don't want to derail into a straddle thread, so I'll just leave it at this (which I'm sure we can all agree on): Based on the way OP played the hand (preflop is *so* bad), he should never straddle.

Gfair?G

Is not a derail if the OP specifically wants discussion on the topic. We know you'll never change your hard headed opinions so nice way to deflect the fact you could be wrong.

I know I'll regret saying this (really, I know I should just bite my tongue here)... but I have to admit, at a 10 handed table it isn't immediately obvious to me that this is clearly a +EV move for us.

ETA: My quick attempt at mathing it suggests that the table would have to be 7 handed before we're not putting in more than our fair share of the dead money. And on top of that we're still OOP.

Gshowyourmath,imoG

I don’t understand the need to be rude. I knew i played the hand incorrectly which is why i posted here. I’m fairly inexperienced so I am trying different things at the table as i grow more comfortable.

I wasn't intending to be rude.

There are people in this thread making arguments for why straddling is a good thing (for them, for the game, etc.). I happen to disagree with these arguments. However, if you're an expert, then obviously do whatever you want, and you'll be fine. *But*, you're not an expert (again, not hatin', just sayin'). So be very very very careful when encountering a claim that straddling is +EV... because it is only going to be +EV (at best) for experts. For anyone struggling with the game (which you might be?), it is not going to be remotely +EV.

Ggoodluck!G

I can't believe what I'm reading, there's an argument on 2p2 that VPIP'in money blindly, OOP, is good for our win rates...

I agree with what magnum said, it reduces SPR and leaves less room to maneuver in the hand. It kinda reminds me of what most players refer to as a "great juicy game" whith money flying in the pot and multiple all-in's every hand - it only turns it into a higher varience game, since we're either guessing by getting money in with nominal hands or waiting for a spot to gii which may never even come.

I don't voluntarily straddle ever. Maybe when I used to drink and play a lot I mighta done it here and there, but yesterday I was in a game where everyone decided to staddle which basically turned a 2/5 game into a 5/10 game which was fine since everyone was deep. However, two new random players came in the game, although they were told "we're all straddling, but it's up to you", they didn't stay too long, so the deep stacks and straddles chased away the two weakest players.

Good catch. Most of the EV lost by the bad players in the double/triple straddle will be captured by good players with position. If there’s a pro on the BTN for example it’s not clearly +EV for me in this individual hand.

If we’re playing 5-handed then I would argue it’s “clearly” +EV, because we are in the best position to capture the bad players money. But that’s not a proof and there’s no math to back it up. Just my intuition.

There are a lot of meta-game intangibles about being in a game where double/triple straddles are put on occasionally. Everyone loosens up their ranges and is more willing to lose large amounts of money in the unstraddled or single straddled pots, since there is more opportunity to make that lost money up in the big straddled pots.

Thinking of each straddle decision in isolation is missing the forest for the trees IMO.

Edit: One point of possible agreement between us is that BTN straddles are bad. I never BTN straddle even if it is allowed in the game. It kills the fun vibe of the game IMO.

Fair enough, thank you.

If you’re in a game where the question arises as to whether to agree to a round of straddles (everyone promises to straddle), do you decline?

nope, but like I said it turns the game into a 5/10, it's not like I'm straddling when no one else is.

I was asking because you said you don’t voluntarily straddle. It sounds like you would straddle if the rest of the table agreed to do so.

If you follow Magnum and GG literally I think they’re saying they would be fine to be the only one at the table to refuse to straddle. Which is nonsensical (no offense) if you’re playing deep. You’re just making the game smaller and making it harder to stack whales/fish.

I was fine with turning the game into 5/10 since everyone was deep enough, and everyone agreed to do it. The lowest stack was over 300 bb's, up to 600+bb's. Also if you're the only one that says no, your image will look tight even to the fish and you might not get the calls you want later.

GG, what sort of hours have you played at 2/5? Any stakes above that?

5268 hours of 1/3 NL is an astonishing number. Would love to hear your thoughts on your experience playing 1/3 live and your mentality about it.

I've played a single session of 1.5 hours of 2/5 (it ~doesn't run in my casino, not that I would necessarily play it if it did). Check out my Clueless Noob well for my thoughts on 1/3 NL.

(FWIW, 5268 hours would be reached by a pro player in just ~3 years but it took me a decade+ to do it as a purely rec player, so it really isn't that many hours, although still a good sample size to decide if us straddling has any effect whatsoever on the game)

GcluelessNLnoobG

Straddles are very common across all game types in my city in Texas, from 1/2 to 2/5 to 5/T. The funnest most gambooly games do involve frequent double and triple straddles. I would say at least half of all games will feature a frequent straddle and the occasional double or triple straddle.

The winningest 2/5 and 5/T pros all encourage straddles (ideally to get the table to agree to a round of straddles). If you did an opinion poll and asked local pros whether “straddles are good for the game and do you make an effort to encourage them”, I think most if not all would agree.

Also, it’s a social thing. It would be hypocritical for a pro to encourage straddling if they do not straddle themselves. There is also a dynamic where pros in my games will straddle to make the action players feel more inclined to gamble.

Finally, straddling is not a zero sum activity. If I straddle UTG to enable a double straddle to my left, then one for-profit player on the BTN may gain most of the benefit/EV. But that same player will feel the token of good will and straddle at their next opportunity, sometimes to enable a double straddle to their left, and I may benefit when it is my button/cutoff.

You have to play in a fun gambooly game to appreciate the social dynamic related to straddling.

I have played in nitty games where I refuse to straddle, and I feel straddling actually tightens up the game. So I appreciate where you’re coming from.

You seem to be arguing for absolute truths in many of your comments on this forum, particularly here. There are rarely absolute truths in any real-world topic whether in poker or politics or finance or whatever.

I appreciate everyone’s comments on this. I’ve been thinking about what you all have said about the meta game benefits and benefits for certain players. I will take it under advisement.

Straddles may work for some folks and not others. I am not a pro. I play live, recreationally, once or twice a month and play online daily, for fun, as a hobby. I don’t have a large bankroll for live play. My 1/3 game has a max buy in of $400 and if I show up with $800 or $1,000, that is not an insignificant amount of money to me and my family. In other words, I dont want to lose $1,000 dollars twice a month. Many of you all may have a much bigger bankroll and much higher tolerance for gambling losses. But that’s where I’m coming from.

My main objection to the constant straddling is that I show up to play 1/3 with a 400 max buy in and the game turns in to a 1/3/6 game but with the same max buy in, and the pre flop SPR goes down from 133 bb to 40 bb.

If we get a straddle and 2 limpers and it comes to me on the BN and I’ve got a hand like KJs and I want to pop it up for a raise, I’ve got to make the raise pot sized or bigger to get folds (in fact a 5x open raise is not unusual even without limpers), and if I get only 1 caller then the SPR is going to be like 4 and I’m going to be playing for stacks with KJ. Not ideal. Probably better to just limp behind with it. So then the game turns into a limp fest and I sit around waiting for TT/JJ+, AK/AQ to raise big with or waiting to make a big hand in a multi-way limped pot. Either way it stifles my game and feels kind of lame.

So anyway, I don’t like it. If we are going to play 1/3/6 then I’d like to increase the buy in. I hope you understand where a player like me is coming from.