1/3 hero is effective stack w 1800

Main villain is to direct left of hero and covers w ~2.5 k friendly you g hispanic kid who is returning from a long break due to ‘run bad’ ran up stack after running super good against villain 2 who is main fish at table. Has been playing pretty tight limp calling and never open raising. Willingly told me hed fold to a raise on the river in a spot where I knew I was beat but opted to fold.

Villain 2 is massive fish at table who has been running like God. Super passive playing a 99% VPIP. Literally in every hand. Stack at ~2k after winning ~1600 multiway pot where hero 3bet villains 10 dollar raise to 50 w AA. Pot went 4 ways to flop which was Q high. Villain donk led all three streets until showdown. Villain had Q9 offsuit and won w/ two pair on river w all 4 calling every street. Other 2 players in the pot behind hero showed KK (no 4bet preflop sadly) and AQ suited.

OTTH

Hero opens AKss UTG to 12. Main villain to direct left calls. Fish in SB and fish in BB call and we go 4 ways to flop.

(43) QKdd10s

Fish in SB donks for 30. Villain 2 calls. Hero calls. Main villain min raises to 60. sb who donked folds. Villain 2 calls and hero calls.

(253) 10c

It is important to note that after the turn sb who folded very noticeable sighed of regret. He was reprimanded by the dealer and other players at the table. It was obvious he folded a 10.

Checks to main villain who bets 75. Fish calls and hero calls.

(553) 10h

Once again Sb who folded sighs loudly much to the chagrin of entire table. At this point it becomes almost unquestionable that he folded a 10.

Fish checks and hero opts to donk bet 300. In hindsight I greatly prefer a check but I was thinking at the time that I wanted to blow either main villain or fish off a chop.

Much to Hero’s surprise main villain raises to 600. Fish calls.

Hero?????

My game never plays this deep and I suck at deepstack.

Can probably do anything we want preflop given we're so crazy deep.

Probably too early to fold to the donk + call so I'm fine with the overcall and see what happens. When it's minraised by the straightfoward guy (who is never getting out-of-line with the fish in the hand) it's time to fold, imo. We're actually getting ok odds to chase our gutshot, but it could easily be dirty and we have low IO on a 4-to-a-straight board.

I don't make it to the turn but I fold again. Again, we're getting good odds but this guy just ain't getting out-of-line so the best we can hope for is chopping, imo. And if he's the guy who slowplayed KK preflop the last hand then even more reason to fold (as he could easily have a huge monster here).

We're blowing no one off a chop on the river. We've runout incredibly well and counterfeited a bunch of hands (straights, KQ) so I don't hate a value bet, but I'd probably go a lot smaller to eke out getting paid. I mean, how often is a straight paying off a $300 bet on a trips board? I'd probably go no more than $100 and hope to get sigh called off enough.

I'd fold to the raise. AA/KK/QQ are all easily in play in a super deepstack game where preflop is mostly about disguising your hand (I'd have 0% raise/3betting preflop range unless there was some super big money in the pot preflop this deep, but that's just the way I play, the point being that others could easily play like this too).

GbutIfoldeasily,sowhateverG

Nobody is going to fold a king for half pot so trying to blow them off a chop with that bet seems pretty bad. If you're going to do that then you need to overbet jam, which you could also do with AA/KK/QQ, this assuming that you're 100% sure the other guy folded the ten. Qx probably isn't calling a big river bet since it's obvious somoene has Kx and could have better. I like a super small bet, a check, or a jam. 300 seems kind of like the worst option.

Guessing you and the other fish both have the K and V has QQ...

Edit - I think your river pot size is also wrong, should be $478 if I'm reading the post right

Ah yes youre correct my bad. I totally agree it was the absolute worst option.

+1

The fish sat at the table thinking it was 2/5 and then ran like God. Several ppl table hunted to get in on the action and were reloading like mad bcuz he was running super pure and stacking ppl w premiums left and right w garbage hands. I built my stack when I opened AK to 20 UTG and he called. I checked an AAQ rainbow flop. He donk led blank turn for 50. I smooth called. River brings the heaven sent K and he donk leads 175. I considered jamming but at this point we were 1200 deep and I didnt think hed call. I raised to 500 and he snap calla w A8hh and happily ships. I wish I raised the turn so that I bet even bigger on the river because it appears he would have called any bet on the river 😩

This was not the same guy who slow played KK.

I dont think I could ever find a fold on flop w TPTK even though straight forward guy probably never has bluffs here. I potentially could have folded turn w a bigger bet but 75 seemed tgtbt especially after fish called and layed me even better odds.

I hate hate the 300 bet too and really wish I checked.

Agreed super stoooopid on my part. Huge leak that I am working on fixing.

As played do you fold or call this river bet?

What do you think the straightforward guy is minraising the flop and expecting 0 folds (especially with the fish in the hand) with? He's really doing this with a draw just to perhaps take a free card on the turn while risking re-opening the betting in a huge pot; wouldn't he just take his good odds in position? Does he really play AK like this on this board?

Gwe'reinbadshapefacingtheflopminraise,imoG

Though hes a straight forward player we are super deep and the flop was suited and super connected. I have never played with this player and though he might be straight forward its not too crazy to think hed raise all his straight and diamond draws. Especially a pair + fd. I had no diamonds so I expected his range to include diamond draws and straight draws and of course all nutted combos and two pairs as well. However w a min raise and the fish in the pot it seemed too nittish to fold at this point, but I mean I could get behind it.

On the turn he bet so small that again I guess I should have been more suspicious of his nutted combos especially when the board paired. But with the almost certain confirmation that he did not have a 10, some of his two pair combos were reduced.

I never expected him to have AA here because I would think he would 3! this hand a high percentage of the time. QQ/KK here more likely than AA because the table is passive but I had already shown a propensity to open and 3! light so I would think a thinking player would opt to 3! these hands for value but you never know @ 1/3.

As played Im assuming you fold to the river raise?

Given descriptions I don't think we are ever good here. Main V min raising flop is either a set or a straight IMO. When board pairs and it's still multi way and he sizes down giving everyone great odds to continue it looks more like a boat than a defensive bet. When we donk lead and get raised the story looks so much like KK or QQ. If we are calling we are putting in another 100 BB on the river just to hope to chop vs what? KJ and KQ? Given action and descriptions I just dont buy it. Bad river lead IMO. I could have understood a hero check / call on the river if that's even a thing. But AP, I'm folding if I can put all this info together in real time. Sometimes I still make a bad call that was an obvious fold when I later re-think the hand.

Agreed. In real time it all seems like it happens so fast and a huge leak of mine is to not slow down and think things through. Tbh in real time I didnt even consider KK or AA I only thought he possibly had QQ. River lead is absolute putrid 🤦*♀️

This has probably been my number one leak (not slowing down to really think things thru on the river which is for the most $$$), for quite a long time, and yet I *still* find myself making this mistake.

Gnotreallysurewhattodoaboutit,tbhG

I would make it a lot larger preflop AK suited, I would open to $20-$25, especially if there are fish who will call you. I want to get paid off or go heads up, AK sucks multiway and you want to head up. I want to try to flop good against fish with these type of hands and get my money in.

Post flop this is a super disgusting hand, I am a beginner too so take my stuff with a grain of salt.


It is such a small raise that I honestly don't understand what the villain is trying to accomplish. If he has a set or two pairs, why is raising so small on such a wet board?
You are getting the right odds to call inmo for that price to chase your gut shot.

Only thing I am scared of is KQ, KT, J9, A/J QQ and TT, KK would 3 bet and you are blocking one king. Ace king would probably also 3 bet preflop as well with AA.

On the turn, i agree it seems that it is likely that 10 was folded, so it is blocking the KT even harder now, with the combination of you having a king as well.

I am ok with a call.

On the river, well now it is obvious that the villain does not have a T.

I would not donk, but check call pretty much anything that is not an all in.

I don't think Kings are likely cuz they'd be 3bet preflop plus you are blocking them. T also cuz of the guy that folded is unlikely. A/j would not raise unless he trying to steal, same with J/9. It is likely that he has a king or queens. Fish is calling with a king or queen probably. So it really boils down now, does he have QQ? I don't see why he would not 3bet queens preflop. So because of that reason, I am thinking you are good here and call as you played, but I would have just check called in your spot instead of donking.

What happened?

I think you are underestimating the chance of V flatting QQ-AA next to act. This is so common now with players hoping for a 3b behind instead of 3b themselves since it makes their range so much stronger and easier to play against. As played you’re never winning so you are calling for a chop at best but I’d expect to lose this almost every time. In game I might say **** it, gotta punish myself for the $300 lead because I’ll feel like an idiot if they both have Kx, but we know that’s probably not the case.

And that's exactly what I did lol.

Result:

I sigh call and get shown the (obvious) bad news that villain had QQ. So gross. Villain 2 mucked so I dont know what he was calling 600 w/ but likely a K.

Its an interesting spot because in hindsight I wonder if re-raising all in here as bluff would have been effective. I definitely have AA in my range and this player is not accustomed to playing this deep. I think some speech play followed by a re raise all in for 500 more bigs might have gotten him to fold and the fish to call.

As played I think took the absolute worst line possible. I think if I check villain bets something like 150 (he has a poor concept of bet sizing and likely this seemed like a big bet to him) and I snap it off after villain 2 calls. Though I am still beat most of the time it saves me 150 bb and I feel less dumb.

Given that earlier in the day I was check raised on the flop and stacked off when I ran into a set, I was weary of the same thing happening on this flop. But in this case villain min raised so low that the price was just too good. Had villain raised to something like 125 I most certainly would have found a fold.

Agreed. Ive found that in my 1/3 game more villains (not just nits and OMCs) are flatting JJ-KK. I still rarely see AA flatted though; in fact, I see AA limpe re-raises far more often. So often in fact it seems like a silly exploit to me because once a player does that I automatically put AA in their range if I decide to continue.

Nailed it

12 pre is so pathetic being this deep

12 is my standard raise regardless of stack depth. I do alter raise sizing depending on game flow/dynamics but 12 seemed appropriate at this table. There were 4 other regs at this table who had a clue and were clearly nut peddling against the fish. Notice how the raise still only went 4 ways to the flop w the two main fish in the blinds as preferred as well as the guy to my left who had a clue but was a weak/predictable opponent.

Knowing the fish will always come along in the blinds next time if Im in a similar position Ill experiment with super exploitative 12x + raise to see if the fish will come along in the blinds. Ive tried this before w AA @ a different table in a somewhat similar position but ended up betting once on the flop and checking down the river when the pot bloated way too big w / 4 callers and every single draw hit; I still ended up scooping but wasnt an ideal scenario

I dunno. V is repping either QQ or AA. Never KK. Just not.

One thing about those quiet, friendly, polite players who min raise rivers. they always have it. They just do. Fold.

He beats AA.

This bluff would be suicidal—repping KK *exclusively*. And that's heavily blocked considering the K on the board *and* the other guy calling (who usually has a K). Maybe he makes a massive mistake and folds, but bluffing into the 2nd nuts trying to rep the (effective) nuts is insanity - he'd have to be very scared money for you to pull that off.

River is definitely a x/c. You don't beat much at that point.

Probably should have folded earlier but his tiny raises/bets strung you along pretty effectively. OTF you're getting decent odds to chase a gutshot. Probably OTT since his bet looks a lot like someone who just boated up trying to eek out more value - you're probably drawing to a K.

Oof i meant KK my bad; and yah I agree just a thought 🤣

A few random comments directed at a few random responses thru out the thread:

- we're playing *massively* deep at 600bbs; we can pretty much do anything we want regarding preflop sizing (including limping, including flatting monsters) as preflop this deep is really just more about disguising our range than anything else (such as "value" or setting up good SPRs since any SPR will always be huge); this is all going to come down to postflop poker

- on the flop we're getting 7.5:1 closing the action; against a minraiser it seems to me our TP is very unlikely to be good, our two pair outs complete an OESD (sometimes a flush), our 10.5:1 gutshot has poor IO due to putting 4-to-a-straight on board, and all our outs are dirty (poor RIO); it's a pretty meh call

- in deepstack poker, what happens on early streets for lol little money ("he didn't really just flat preflop with a big hand for $12 did he!?!?!?") is almost completely irrelevant when weighted against what he did on a big street ("he just made a massive $600 river bet")

GcluelessNLnoobG

Pretty nasty but this was exactly what it looked like IMO. I don't think main V's description min raises flop with AA and then value bets turn small. That would be super fishy that multi way in a raised pot. Just think about how strong his line is to min raise KQT in a 4 way raised pot where all three opponents have shown interest and he's closing the action. A straight should probably be sizing larger given the flush draw, obviously a set makes sense. Maybe ATdd is the only other hand I could give him. Combine with the tiny bet on the turn, the river raise, and the fact that the all the Ts are dead... you see where I'm going. Take your time and think through big pots, there is info on every street. I need to do this more as well.

Couple things, the board is AAKQx at the river, you know he has an A. So his hand is AAAKQ, he is almost never going to fold to any bet, any Ax chops that isn’t a boat.

The topic hand, I didn’t see anybody mention the fact that you have AK and block combo of AA/KK, this helps you narrow down quickly at the table that he most likely has QQ or air but most people don’t min raise with air. He made a good raise that’s hard to fold to.