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Old 06-15-2021, 11:36 PM   #1
sam7595
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1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

8-handed in 1/3 $500 max buy-in. Action has been decent with two weak players to my immediate right. V1 is decent and plays pretty straightforward, but had a failed attempt on a river bluff shove vs. OMC about 45 mins prior to the hand in question; rebought and got doubled-up with AQ v QQ about one orbit prior. V2 is a bit loose, not overly aggressive, but not afraid to get chips in when he thinks he has the best hand. Hero has been playing a little tight, but also looking to get into pots with weak players.

BB (V1): ~$600 eff. v. Hero
CO (Hero):
BTN (V2): ~$600 eff. v Hero

$6 straddle is on UTG. Folds to Hero in CO who opens to $20 K-T. Folds to V2 OTB who calls. Folds to V1 in BB who calls. UTG-straddler calls..

Flop: 8-T-J (Pot $81)
V1 donk leads for $35. Folds to Hero in CO who calls. V2 OTB raises to $100. V1 calls. Hero calls.

Turn: (8-T-J)-K (Pot $381)
V1 leads out again for $225.

Hero???

Last edited by sam7595; 06-15-2021 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:49 PM   #2
drowski
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Just a heads up you're 100bb deep because of the straddle

I'm definitely not folding here. We've got outs when we're behind and have a hand that is good about half(? Open to other guesses here) the time. Calling makes no sense so I'm just ripping it in

Last edited by drowski; 06-15-2021 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:01 AM   #3
BlueSpade84
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Flop is a must raise. Have you no raising range on the flop? If you do this is a prime bluff candidate to add and should one of the first ones added.

Definitely jamming turn. Extremely straight forward hand. Not trying to be a jerk, but if this is a question about how to play this hand, you should not play so deep until you are more comfortable with basic theory. Your bankroll will thank you.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:11 AM   #4
drowski
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Gonna take the other side here and say raising flop is bad. We have middle pair no need to turn our hand into a bluff. Calling the first time is standard and so is calling the second time.

Usually, as far as theory is concerned, when you have a pair and a fd you want to play it the same way you would without the fd.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:21 AM   #5
sam7595
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

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Originally Posted by BlueSpade84 View Post
Flop is a must raise. Have you no raising range on the flop? If you do this is a prime bluff candidate to add and should one of the first ones added.

Definitely jamming turn. Extremely straight forward hand. Not trying to be a jerk, but if this is a question about how to play this hand, you should not play so deep until you are more comfortable with basic theory. Your bankroll will thank you.
1. Did think about raising the flop, but V1 is leading into three other opponents OOP. Also, while raising might've folded out V2 OTB, I didn't want to get blasted off my hand if V1 re-raises as I'm probably no better than ~35% equity HU vs. V1's re-raise/shove range.

2. After V2's flop raise OTB, not sure if K-high FD multi-way is offering RIO? I don't think V1 has A-Q as would expect a squeeze PF, but A-9 is definitely within range as would be any AQo (which can include A as nut blocker?). V2 can also have suited A-X OTB and elected to call my opening raise instead of 3!'g - smallish raise sizing IP OTF points to that possibly? (I think 9-X just calls closing the action and getting good price?).

3. And with V2 OTB still to act behind OTT, he's getting great price on a lot of draws/combo draws if he doesn't already have made hand?
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:43 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

The PFR is outside my range for the most part, but I suppose. The flop call seems standard. However, calling V2's flop raise is, for me, a little loose. Yes, I would call it, but mostly for the flush draw and maybe picking up a straight draw. This feels like V1 has 2-pair (KJ) and V2 has a made straight, or a set.

That K on the turn doesn't look like a good card to me. I'm definitely going to tank and look for tells, but despite making two-pair, I'm in favor of folding. I suppose I'll get flamed, but I'm used to it.
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Old 06-16-2021, 04:26 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Why are we playing suited cards if we’re not fist pumping this? Reasonable chance we’re ahead and lots of outs if not
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Old 06-16-2021, 06:28 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Interesting case. I think this depends on what the plans are for the river. If someone shoves on the river, are you folding on a blank? If so, you should fold on the turn. You're not drawing to the nuts. The odds increase that someone is since there are two other people in the hand.

If not, then I'd shove. David Sklansky in "Theory of Poker" gives a case where it makes sense to raise even if you have the second best hand in a 3 way pot. You want the nut FD to fold.
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Old 06-16-2021, 07:14 AM   #9
duckworth
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Feels like a spot where a back-raise jam makes a ton of sense... Bart Hanson often advocates for this with pair + draw combos facing a donk + raise in multiway spots.... good chance one of these villains has overplayed something like AJx on the flop.
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:56 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

I'm shocked people are considering folding turn. What are you calling with here? AQcc?
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:19 AM   #11
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Interesting case. I think this depends on what the plans are for the river. If someone shoves on the river, are you folding on a blank? If so, you should fold on the turn. You're not drawing to the nuts. The odds increase that someone is since there are two other people in the hand.

If not, then I'd shove. David Sklansky in "Theory of Poker" gives a case where it makes sense to raise even if you have the second best hand in a 3 way pot. You want the nut FD to fold.
Now that is an interesting thought.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:33 AM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

My default play would also be to open preflop in this spot. However, if the result is often going to be this (lol, somehow 4ways with us not even having position) then I'd also be cool with an open limp in LP. I'm guessing the preflop result is unexpected.

Think I'm cool with just flatting the flop donk. A donk into 3 opponents from EP on this type of board in a raised pot is kinda scary, so I'm not exactly convinced we have much FE and our hand equity might start plummeting against anyone willing to play for any real chips.

I actually think it is a gross spot facing the flop raise. In these type of spots, we rarely have anything close to the amount of outs that we might originally think we do. If the A high flush is out there then we are drawing incredibly slim.

Also think the turn situation is craptastic as well. This donk into this action is incredibly strong. And we still have the flop raiser to act behind us. And we could still easily be drawing to only a few outs.

Against sane players, I'd have zero issues making folds on either street.

ETA: What's everyone putting V1 on? My guess for the rock bottom of his range here would be KJ; not a good thing when someone's rock bottom of his range is beating us quite handily. Now factor in what V2 could have; heck, even him sucking up some of our outs (which is the rock bottom of his range) puts us in a very bad situation. So even against the rock bottom part of ranges we're not exactly in a great spot, and things start getting much worse when we're not up against the rock bottom parts.

ETA#2: I guess you could argue the rock bottom of V1's range might be the nut straight, which even though that is better than two pear, at least we have a lot more equity against it. But still, dude behind us is likely still sucking up some of our outs at the very least. A decent amount of the time we're drawing to 2 outs or 4 outs, and at the best of times we're drawing to 11 outs. I'm of course assuming we're never currently ahead at this point (and against sane players we never should be).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 06-16-2021 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:35 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

I'm calling the turn, and may bluff-catch the river sometimes. We can also turn a few straight-completing cards into bluffs. Presumable v1 has some sets,2p and 97 in range for this line (and perhaps some random bluffs, including other club draws)

Hand seems well-played pre and flop. While I don't like flop raising, villain's small donk lead is kind of suspicious - i think we start discounting some of his better made hands since most villains bet more for protection.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:38 PM   #14
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

(for some reason couldn't get this edit in my last post)

ETA#3: So for example, let's say we're up against two straights, or maybe a straight and bottom set. And let's say thankfully all our flush outs are good. So actually one of our better case scenarios (much better than being up against a dominating KJ) due to the fact that we have 13 outs, or approximately 26% equity. Well, all the stacks are going to go in on the turn, which means we'll be putting in $480 to win $1320 (if I've done my math right). Which means we need about 27% equity. So even in one of the better case scenarios we're only ~breakevenish at best. Now start factoring in the worse cases, such as someone hogging up some of our outs, or someone having the nut flush draw, etc.

GcluelesseditingnoobG
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:46 PM   #15
Loki9
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

I like a flop raise. Getting V2 to fold gives us position and V1 may fold some hands we are behind (JX, AT). I'd rather find out now if we are up against a set or a flopped straight.

As played, calling the turn bet puts half your starting stack in the pot and pretty much commits you to calling the river, so to me that makes it a choice between folding and jamming. With this action the only NFD that makes sense is A9 (maybe also AQ if they don't 3bet that PF), so your flush outs are probably good.

It's probably not a large difference in the long haul, do you like variance?
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:50 PM   #16
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

I probably just raise V1's donk on the flop.

Now that we are here, it's shove or fold for me. I can go either way, honestly. I think V1 has a set or straight (he was waiting for a "safe" turn), but we have a lot of outs.

I don't like flatting w/ V2 behind. I'd rather shove myself.
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:26 PM   #17
sam7595
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Feel free to roast me at your leisure, but here's how it played out:

Spoiler:

Last edited by sam7595; 06-21-2021 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 06-21-2021, 03:22 PM   #18
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Spoiler:


GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:14 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
If not, then I'd shove. David Sklansky in "Theory of Poker" gives a case where it makes sense to raise even if you have the second best hand in a 3 way pot. You want the nut FD to fold.
Forgive the possibly dumb question -- is that LHE or NLHE? In LHE it's fairly often correct to aggress with a 2nd best hand to "buy outs." Of course the amount in the middle is huge compared to the extra bet or two; moreover, you can't get bluffed out of the pot by a 3-bet.

I'm sure it's a NHLE example or you would have said so; just checking since I don't remember that many big-bet examples for this kind of principle.
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Old 06-25-2021, 05:31 AM   #20
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Re: 1/3: 2P w/K-high FD OTT as PFA vs. two opponents @ 200BB deep each

Man. You having the Tc is pretty bad as it blocks many of either villains bluffs/hands that think they have too much equity to fold. Having any clubs is bad here. KJ no club is better as it unblocks flush draws. Heads up you can be beating a flopped JT. But against 2 players seems like you're drawing pretty thin. You also still have to contend with the flop raiser in position left to act. Probably fold and watch them turn over some inferior slop. Ha
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