Table is a mix of weak/passive players and tight some aggressive some passive with 50-200bb (most sacks about 60bb). Nobody is particularly aggressive (except for Hero). Couple older guys who basically have a zero % bluffing range. There are two truly bad players (not including Hero, who is just regularly bad), but they are short-stacked. The two bigger stacks (about 200bb) seem to be just sitting there.

Hero: (BB, $185) is relatively new at the table, sat about 45-60min ago. I recognize a few people here, but will only identify the villains involved in this hand. Even though Hero's only been at the table an hour or so, I've gotten hit with the deck preflop and have been more active then usual. Hero Cbets about 90%+, and his flop bets are usually PSB or bigger. My bet sizing will be relative to board texture and number of players involved, as opposed to relative hand strength (e.g. I open preflop to $11+$2/limp). Lost a big pot to V2 about 10 minutes ago when Hero's AK flops TPTK and his PSBs on the flop and turn got called down by a V2's naked-NFD who hit on the river.

V1: (MP, $300) is middle aged Asian man. No history with Hero.

V2: (CO, covers) has some history with Hero but it is unlikely he remembers. Usually I feel like I have a pretty good read on him, but he does have the capability to spazz and show up with wildly unexpected hands. His GF is sitting behind and he's showing her his cards. He'll chase draws and doesn't seem to understand pot odds or implied odds. His value bets are almost always sized too small relative to the pot and remaining stacks. Propensity to slow play. I cannot ever remember him bluff-catch on the river with anything less then a big PP or TPGK+. One other hand of note (Doubtful this provides much help in this hand, but w/e... Hero was not involved): V2 3b to $45 from the SB after a MP raise to $16 and a call and showed 99 after everyone folded.

Action: Folds to V1 who limps $2, folds to V2 who limps $2, folds to Hero how looks down at QJ.

Decision #1: Check-option or raise?

Normally I raise here. Since it will be OOP, I normally would raise to $16-20 after two+ limpers from late position. I would expect most of the time I would get at least 1 caller.

For reasons I cannot really explain, I decided to just check my option and see the flop. I think I must have been on tilt after losing to the NFD suck-out. (And if I was on my A-game, I certainly would not have checked here.)

Flop ($4): T Q 3

Hero leads for $20. V1 calls. V2 calls. Both villains called immediately, as if there was no decision involved.

I don't think there's really anything to discuss here other then bet sizing. Of course we're leading here with TP+FD. I don't see any need to bet any smaller then $20 given that the flop is pretty wet.

When both villains called so quickly, my danger senses perked up. Thoughts?

Turn ($60): T Q 3 Q

Decision #2: Lead, c/c or c/r?

In real time, I admit I was really at a loss here.

Counting combos makes it very unlikely that anyone else has a Q here, and since the pre-flop action was limped in LP, the only QX hands out there are QJ-, which QJs does quite well against.

After thinking for a bit, Hero leads for $40 (with $123 left), V1 calls, V2 calls, both immediately. Both villains are showing signs of being very interested in the pot.

What do we think about this bet? Sizing?

FWIW, I really hate my sizing here. Again, evidence that I was not on my A-game. Though, of course, given stacks remaining, it doesn't really matter that much. I think $40 is too small given the flop action. $55-65 is better sizing.

The list of bad river cards isn't too bad: non- 8's, 9's, K's, A's. I feel like I want to include the versions of these too since a villain with Qx very likely has Q8-QJ here. If just add all of these here, that like 16-ish of the remaining 47 cards, 1/3 of the deck kinda sucks for Hero.

How are folks feeling about the flush?
Do we ever expect villains to play 98 this way?
Or should we only expect to see A-high and K-high FD's here?

River ($180) T Q 3 Q 8

Hero thinks for a few seconds, but as he does V2 picks up a stack of chips.

Decision #3: Hero's action?

Well, 98 is no longer possible. Given the action, the only hands I'm losing to here are Q8x (and Q8 is still live), A-flush and K-flush, and a poorly played QTx.

I beat AQ and KQ, but I don't think those hands are possible given the action.

Can I haz help with ranging villains here?

After about 30-40s of deliberation, Hero checks, V1 checks and V2 bets $50.

Hero has $123 left. Hero? Call or shove (obviously not folding)?

Again, thoughts on all points would be appreciated.

I would call and expect to see A high flush/Stragiht/trip Qs.
No point in shoving as it will fold out any trip Q/Straight and even small flushes if they are scared of fullhouse.

Preflop I use a mix of raise and limp depending on villains. The question is, will a reasonable raise get folds? If they are both going to call $12-$15 then I would rather check and see the flop first most of the time, but if $10-$12 will get me heads up most of the time I would rather raise. I'm betting this flop ever time, $10-$20 depending on villains. I agree that both quick calling is worrying here, as it means there is a decent chance one is on a better flush draw. On turn, I like the lead for $40, more is a waste even with two villains in, but my danger sense would be tingling when that gets two calls. I see villains show up with limped AQ/KQ enough that I would be worried here, and badly played QT is also possible. It is possible on turn that we are facing a better flush draw and a better QX, leaving us with very few outs. How much I'm worried depends on how I range villains here.

On river, I like check/call. There are lots of worse hands that might be in here, but shoving folds most of them. Flatting lets V1 call with QX or a worse flush also. The real question is what to do if V1 raises after we flat. If both V1 and V2 move all in, I think you can fold, but against just one you have to call.

this is so tilting on several levels.

I'd try to get as much money in as possible on every street against two limpers described.

preflop is where the problem is and you acknowledge it, so, there ya go.

Heh... Please elaborate...

I don't have a problem with no raise PF. Many players would be better off just checking their option there. I think you need a decent skill edge against your opponents to make that a good raise. I don't know if you have that. But checking can't possibly be that bad there in any case.

Turn I would have bet bigger (albeit only slightly) $45-50 keeps a lot of hands you beat calling. But makes a river shove easier to pull off if only one calls.

On the river I would just jam it. I would do this even without additional information. Once you see the guy instantly going for chips, I think its an easier shove (that is like 90% reliable tell for guy not wanting you to shove which I think he only does with hands you beat).

Once you check it's a weird spot. The bet sizing makes me feel like we are towards the bottom of his value range. So I would be tempted to jam it. And I would probably talk myself into it. It looks super strong to c/shove the river, but its not for a whole lot more and he probably calls with his whole betting range.

V2's bet is a value bet. He is not bluffing here. He probably has a < 5% bluff frequency in this spot. I'm not saying I'm folding, but, it is a pretty good exercise, IMO, to put V2 on a value range here.

Given my history with him, I think his value range here is majority [Q8, A-flush, QX, Q8o-QJo]. I'm discounting QT to basically non-existent given the action. The K-flush, I'm not sure he bets this OTR. Further, It is unclear to me whether he has any smaller flushes in his range at this point -- I just don't know if he has 97 in his range.

I'm definitely folding though if I flat and V1 moves in. I beat nothing in this case.

So you bet 20$ into a 6$ pot on the flop and got two callers?

There are definitely times where the "grab for chips" is a tell for weakness. This was not one of those times.

Imagine the scene where V2 is looking at the board and after a few seconds just casually picks up a stack of chips.

He was not looking at either of his two opponents. He did not make any aggressive movements. He was just getting ready to put $$$ in the pot.

No, I bet $20 into a $4 pot ($1 BBJ, + $1 for initial rake drop).

I'd be interested in what you have to say about it.

RE: Turn bet sizing.

Given that the two villains were so eager to call the flop bet, I think we have to give them some credit for at least pretty big draws.

(ETA: Assume Hero is b/f the turn here.)

Betting 2/3 Pot (as I did) really only prices out V1. But once V1 calls, then V2 is getting 3.5:1 immediate pot odds. Which is plenty to continue on with a 12+ out draw.

If V1 folds (or V1 calls and V2 folds), then I think the 2/3 pot bet is fine. But considering this is LLSNL, and villains can't generally help themselves but to call, I think I need to make the turn bet bigger to make sure that neither villain is getting good enough odds to call.

If I made it 5/4 pot, $75, then V1 is getting 1.8:1 and V2 would get as much as 2.8:1. I think this is probably too big though. I think I like $55-60 better.

Betting $60 on the turn leaves $103 left. An easy shove on the river even if there is only 1 caller on the turn.

I think there are a lot of nice spots for overbets in LLSNL. But if it narrows ranges as much as you seem to think it does, then you might be better off making it a little smaller.

I would be more comfortable getting stacks in here then you are. But if you're right that most of the smaller draws are folding, you might be better off not betting so much.

Grunch:

With 92bb, this is a bet bet bet spot where you can probably take your hand to the grave with, especially on the turn where villains will raise with worse because "omg I got tripz"

And as played to the river, I go ahead and shove. No one has shown they have you beat with a bigger Qx, and if someone has a bigger flush at this point... well that's poker. It's better to shove into a bigger flush then to miss value from weaker flushes and Qx that would otherwise call it all off.

Pre: I like the check myself. I feel that too often with the raise you will find yourself in awkward positions post-flop. Only if the table is oh so passive, and 1-2 limpers will I raise with QJs from the BB.

Flop: I actually love the overbet in this situation. It not only gets a lot more money in the pot when you either have the best hand already or a great draw. But often the villain will put you on either a small hand trying to over-protect or a draw (ironically close in this situation).

Turn: Love this card and gotta bet. Could be a little larger here given how quick villains were to call. Most likely they're seeing you as less likely to have the Q now.

River: I think we'd rather not have the heart of course. But as is I don't see how you can do anything other than b/c. If you're beat, those are the breaks I guess. Checking here is very bad IMHO. Checking loses value from hands we beat, and lets go of value sizing. Given that we have two villains, there is also less chance that one will spaz bluff on us.

As played, just call the river bet, as you'll fold out the hands you beat with a shove.
Shove river next time.

Pre - this is fine. You don't expect to steal the blinds w/ an 8-10bb raise, so why raise? This is a great IO's hand to have in position. Keep the SPR's high. Putting in 1% of your stack is perfect to play this hand this way.

Flop - bet sizing and calls is weird goofiness. I haven't seen this outside of Vegas tourist tables.

Turn - bet more to give yourself an easier decision on the river. Your hand is very strong. There are lots of draws, some of the hidden, that may suck out.

River - Bet (shove) instead of check. There are so many things H beats that will call - smaller flushes, set of Q's, and a straight. You are behind bigger flushes and 3's over Q's but they are a smaller % of V ranges, and for the most part you are going to wind up paying them anyway.

AP, just call. V2 decision not to check behind substantially increases the likelihood of a boat or a flush. I don't think you are ahead of more than 1/2 the flushes.

In my experience, the flop is the street where you can basically overbet the hell out of the pot all the time and get lots of loose calls. Super easy to bloat up the pot at will.

I'm basically never betting less then $20 on the flop, almost regardless of preflop action, as in my experience, you'll get plenty of callers.


Hmmm.... Unless we think the villains are continuing with 97- and 76- (given the flop and turn action), then we're behind all of the flushes.

8, T, J, Q flushes are all spoken for.

While we cannot completely discount to zero likelihood the smaller flushes, it just seems unlikely that 76 is going to call the turn bet when the board pairs.

Re: bolded. LOL. Yeah. I'm not so much protecting against draws but trying to get some $$ in the pot with my fairly strong made hand + draw.

I pretty much agree with everything here, except the preflop check.

Can't believe what I'm reading itt, checking the option pre was a clear mistake...that Lapi openly (and correctly) admits to. Please do not attempt to pacify it.

I mean if it's a 9 way limped pot at an action table and UTG+1 loves to limp/rr, then yes check option.

2 limps in mp/lp, no. Never.

I disagree.

QJs is perfectly strong enough to raise against two limpers' ranges here.

I'm not afraid to play it post flop OOP because I am perfectly willing to let it go if necessary. I'd rather prevent them from seeing a cheap flop with A-rag-suited or middle SCs.

Let them make a mistake by calling with 87s and I'll get two more streets of value from them on a J82r board.

Results:

Hero tanks for a while and finally just calls.

I very nearly snap shoved over V2's bet, but then really took my time to think it over. I actually couldn't see my way toward any value hands that V2 could have that I would beat. So getting $230:50 if V1 folds, ~4.5:1, I decided I could never fold here, and maybe V1 will call with something completely stupid like J9 or something.

V1 swears out loud and turbo mucks his cards.

V2 turns over A9. A miracle of LLSNL fish poker.

So V2's calls were as follows:

Flop: Hero bets $20 in to $4, V1 calls and its $44:20 to V2. 2:1 PO, and with $163 remaining in Hero's stack, 10:1 IO (ignoring V1 for now). He needs about 5.2:1 to draw one card to hit his flush on the turn.

Turn: Hero bets $40 into $60, V1 calls and its $140:40 to V2. 3.5:1 PO, and with $123 remaining in Hero's stack, 6.5:1 IO (still ignoring V1). He needs about 5:1 to draw one more card. This is, of course, assuming V2 is not drawing dead to a boat.

The lesson here is that Hero's bets, in retrospect, are pretty small relative to drawing requirements from the POV of V2. V2 is making a small mistake at worst to continue to draw to the nut flush on the flop, and is probably neutral-EV calling the turn, when we add back in the full house risk.

Does anyone have any constructive thoughts about V2's line?

From Hero's perspective: What can we learn here?

Should Hero's turn bet have been much bigger? $80?

Does making the turn bet so much bigger risk folding out too many weaker hands/draws?

I feel like this is a common enough spot to put some real time into working through the example.

Obvious mistake comes from not raising preflop....(in hindsight of course)....I like a raise to $15 with 2 limpers with QJs. Flop bet of $40-$50 which sets you up for a shove on turn for $135. You could be behind AQ or KQ but you still have flush draw outs as well as hitting your boat....does take out the higher flush draws most likely with one card to come and gets you heads up. Could even see a villain calling your all-in with JJ or A10 at this point on the turn many times heads up putting you on a good drawing hand.....depending on your image of course...especially if your image seems slightly tilted.

I disagree strongly that QJs from the blinds plays strongly against limping ranges and thus should be raised from the blinds. I generally only raise it IP vs limping at 100BB - I'll iso with it at about the 150BB range - for the main reason that it it actually plays very weakly with huge RIO against a wide range of limping. I certainly don't hate MP or even IP limping with it.

What's our best case scenarios with QJ? When we two pair against AQ, when we broadway vs AK, when we straighten over sets of 99, 1010, or 88 and below sets of KK (and maybe AA) All of which we can buy time to do when we raise or flat IP to chill the action, filter bet speculative flops and get a checked turn to draw. None of those hands exist here except relatively rarely for AQ and 88.

By the same token, there's lot of limping hands that we lose either hunks of money or stacks to. Axs, K9+s for overflushes, K10, 109 stacks us when we hit top two, and we'll typically lose either one or two bets vs KQ, AJ, KJ, and the occasional early limped AQ. Occasionally we can stack two-paired K10 or K9, but we're typically folded out before we can hit that hand because that action typically begins with them hitting the flop, betting and all we have is a gutter and we make a straightforward fold. We can also get in nasty racy draws vs J10 and Q10 when either they or we hit a combo. By the same token, what other limping hands would call any sort of really meaningful betting when we pair that we're beating? How often will we get more than one street of pair value vs Q10-9, J10-9?

QJs is a very, very pretty hand that can play exceptionally with 4-5 people in the hand vs an early raiser who's exposed his/her range and set an acceptable SPR to attack their hand, but you have to be mindful of the hands that kill you and you'll often need to control bet IP - strongly enough to discourage being c/r'd and mindful that you're currently losing the hand - to fold out backdoor draws that beat you.