Prehand Descriptions
Villain 1: TAG Reg. Clearly knows a number of other regs at the table and around the room. He has not shown down any weak preflop hand holdings and has played straightforward. No bluffs shown to this point.
Hero: Playing TAG. Has shown down strong winning hands. Has winning image, Villian has seen Hero quadruple stack since sitting down.

$1/2 NL (10 handed)
HJ V1 ($400)
BUT Hero ($300)
SB ($800)
BB ($175)

Hero is dealt JJ

Folds to V1. V1 in HJ raises to $15. Hero on BUT calls. SB and BB call.

Flop ($55) 6T3
Checks to V1, V1 bets $25. Hero calls. SB and BB fold.

Turn ($105) 7

V1 checks. Hero bets $70. V1 check-raises to $200. Hero ($130 to call, Villian has $160 behind)?

Playing JJ seems to be a weakness of mine and I tend to get lost in spots like this. It seems like a pretty weak way to play JJ.

After the turn check, I figured V1 had made a continuation bet and gave up.

The turn check-raise really confused me. I'd figured he'd fire again with any set, JJ+, AcJc+ (or at least call), and call with AT. I couldn't find a hand he'd check-raise with, especially to $200 with only $160 left behind.

Thoughts?

Despite not being sure about his check-raise range, I folded face-up thinking this was a strong play, and at best, the bottom of his range is a very strong combo-draw semi-bluff (AQ, AK, or some weird line with a suited 8 or 9, but that seemed unlikely given my reads).

**We talked about the hand a few orbits later. I'll post what he told me he had later (which I believe).

Is this his typical betsizing, pre and flop? $25 into $55 could signify a draw.

Did you consider raising flop?

Think I'd fold turn absent reads he is capable of making such moves.

You quadrupled your stack to $300 at a 1/2 game?Well.. if you really got down to $75 or bought in for that much we need to be reloading at some point.

Anyways I think I would have played this hand a lot differently. The problem with 3betting preflop is it puts us in an awkward spot unless he folds. Also, his raise sizing preflop is in line with a big pocket pair/premium hand, so I don't mind calling with position.

However, when the flop hits I think we need to be raising for a few reasons:

1) Villain bet really small on this flop. It also doesn't necessarily smash his range.
2) We have an overpair to the board which is likely the best hand at the moment.
3) If villain comes over the top we are put to a tough decision, but I could see villain stacking off with a hand like AcQc, or AcKc like you said.

As played though I would most likely have to fold. Villain's line screams strength. He's essentially telling you we're playing for stacks, because he is shoving ANY river. Just wait for a better spot versus this V.

Grunching ...

If he is doing this w/8c7c or over clubs, nice play. He has equity to make an aggressive play with these. WA range can also include 2-pr (76), straight (5c4c), TT+.

Calling not option due to stack sizes so as played, fold. Your turn bet is strong, and a CR usually indicates a pp is behind.

PF - assuming the raiser opened or 1 limper, I'd 3-bet w/JJ. His range is wider than you think.

Pot control... know it, live it.

Sorry for the incorrect info in the post. Hero is sitting with $800 (not $300), so we are 200 BB effective, covering his $400 stack.

Preflop, I am 50/50 3Betting vs. Cold Calling. I agree with StackedYouSon, that a TAG Reg's PFL raise to $15 (IME) is a premium holding, which is why I flatted.

A flop raise feels like I'm overplaying the hand (maybe that a mistake), given the action, although, it doesn't seem like there's many good cards that can come on the turn (although I thought the 7 was pretty safe). I'm not sure what we get value from other than AQ, AK, or AT (and even that's questionable). If you raise on the flop, would you Raise/Call or Raise/Fold?

Are you suggesting we check back the turn here?

think about his value range. QQ-AA, TT, 66, 33, 89s, 77, maybe T7s. You made a very healthy bet of 70 and got raised. Based on his sizing, I think a bluff is pretty unlikely here and a fold is in order.

I would fold this for the same reason timjcarroll81 mentions. Your bet is very strong and he knows this and still wants to get his stack in; effectively taking a bluff out of the equation.

With regards to the pot control comment, I think checking back the turn is a mistake. I fail to see a reason not to bet the turn after its checked to us but maybe someone can enlighten me.

Well, firstly, if we're betting out OTT, it's to take down the pot, which would seem a change to our previous line/ strategy (planned or default) to slow-play our overpair.
Checking keeps the pot small which is good, since we have a small hand and there should be a number of "safe" cards OTR, assuming we weren't always behind (but that's why we keep the pot small).
By betting, we not only open ourselves up to the C/R bluff, but we narrow Villain's range exactly when we're trying to get him to value-bet the blank river with A-T.

^^^^

agree

i like to flat with jj against a villain you have mentioned as he probably will 4 bet qq+, not givin us the right price to set mine

flatting with jj gives us th eopurtunity to set mine and to indice bluffs by ak aq aj when they miss and the villain cbets

The problem here is that I can't figure why would he check any part of his value-range here. I think he would only check AA/KK/QQ for pot control, then read your healthy bet as a TP-kind of hand and decided to c/r for value. This assuming he is really good.

I think sets/2-pair hands he will always be value-betting the turn cuz he's oop. I really think you should've bet less ott as it would make him less inclined to bluff-raise you.

As played... I don't know. This isn't a straightforward play by him and I really needed to know if that less than half a pot c-bet was his normal c-bet, monster hand c-bet, this stuff.

Tough hand. If I thought he was REALLY good, I would shove as I'm putting him many times on a big drawing hand and sometimes a big overcards bluff.

Good vil knows your hand is weak.

He bet into 3 players on a drawy board. He has something. He knows you dont except a FD or AT, KTs, some hand like that.

His CR makes it tough for you to continue, charges for draws. By him betting you can call and bluff lots of rivers.

I doubt this is air. But I wouldnt be surprised if its 2 overs + draw.

^^^^ this

Don't show your hand that's stupid.
Fold and applaud him for playing like a ******.

I think theres some advice and opinions ITT that are flat out wrong or misleading.

No. That information cant' be inferred from OP's description which is "TAG reg, plays straightforward, shown only strong PF hands, shown no bluffs"
He does not know your hand is weak. You called him PF, called Flop, made a sizeable turn bet. He may put us on some of those hands but thats not why hes raising.

I'd be really ****ing surprised if it was, esp against a straightforward reg. Reg doesnt mean hes a winning pro it just means he goes there all the time, nothing more can be inferred.


No. This is the opposite. Because you bet more on the turn his betting action correlates more with his hand strength and his action is more likely genuine.




Yes you're right! He probably will 4-bet QQ,KK,AA just like any other player in the history of holdem. So unless you dead-on read him for one of exactly 3 hands PF you should 3-bet. Using JJ to 'set mine' against a LP raiser on the button because he 'might' 4 bet you with QQ+ is God Awful logic and strategy.



Yes that is correct however it doesnt make up for 1)the loss you take when overs flop and he hits and 2) straight up lost value from not 3 betting all the hands in his range that arent QQ,KK,AA (a strong majority are not)





Yes if we bet turn it should be to take the pot down and get value from weaker hands. Just because we didnt 3-bet OR raise flop doesnt mean we should check the turn and compound errors.

Fear of a 'monsters under the bed' check raisebluff is never reason not to bet what is far likely the best hand OTT after villain checks. After all villain standard raised PF, bet half pot flop then checked the turn. Give me one reason to think we shouldnt bet this both for value and to protect against overcards losing the pot for us OTR after he checks.

easy fold... turn bet is AWFUL