Hand at Red Rock...

Hero ($500ish) in BB: mid-20s, TAGish game, regs including V know me as solid winner

V ($320ish) is UTG: 40s white guy, plays pretty straightforward and rarely gets out of line. He does know I cbet my raised pots most of the time and raise often in late position.

Hero dealt KK

V limps, two others limp, SB calls, I raise to $17, V calls and everyone else folds.

Flop ($40): J85

I bet $20 and he min raises to $40, I 3b to $85 and he flats pretty quickly.

Turn ($210): 4

Hero checks, V bets $80, leaving about $140 back. Hero?

I think that I am flatting his min raise instead of 3 betting. I think that flatting allows us to control the size of the pot and b/f about 75 into 120 on the turn. What was you primary purpose with the 3bet on the flop? We will be still be able to get stacks in eventually by flatting the flop raise and it disguises our hand better.

If he just shoved the flop I would have called but his flat pretty much has to be a straight draw or a set. I think he checks back QQ and Jx on the turn but his turn bet seemed to be of the "please call me so I can shove river" variety

hate the bet size on the flop 3b ... make it like 120-140 or just call ... prob just call since you are OOP

the 3b doesn't really tell you anything when he calls, he is not folding for 45 more in that spot with anything but absolute air... and once you check to him on the turn i think his betting range is wider than you think

what is villain's limp-call range UTG?

if we give him sets, QQ, T9s, 97s, 76s then we are still 51% vs his range on the flop ... add in some TP hands and you are way ahead ... even once the turn falls you are at 45% without weighting based on the turn action

if you just call flop you can either c/c turn and evaluate on river or b/f turn against most typical players

Flat flop min raise. By reraising flop, u bloat up the pot where u will have to play for stacks and allow him to play perfectly. If he is any good, he can flat sets and get u committed by river. Also your min reraise gives him odds to chase open ender. As played turn is very read dependent. If u think he can't have Jx here on turn its a check fold. If he can have Jx a lot u can check call turn and check fold river or check shove turn

your line doesnt make sense.

Best line here depends on what he does with Jx

bet flop size sucks.

no clue why you're 3betting flop

My thoughts:

1) Villain is described as "plays pretty straightforward and rarely gets out of line."..yet his flop raise is interpreted to include having an OESD in his range? Raising a flop bet with an OESD is not straightforward play

2) IF villain's range is ONLY sets and OESDs then turn is an easy fold

Your 1/2 pot c-bet oop and hu seems like a weaker holding than KK and so his raise isn't surprising. However, the size of his raise is interesting. A set or two pair hands might (likely wait for turn and raise more) do this for value, TP/TK-SK might raise the minimum for information and a straight draw might semibluff. Your re-raise gets called leaving you with a now growing pot, oop and uncertain about your opponent's hand. Sets and two pair hands (less likely holding) might just call your re-raise knowing that a 4 bet could fold your now obvious over-pair while TP/TK-SK hands might stubbornly hang around and straight draws will call the 45:145 but it most likely folds all other hands. Why did you re-raise the flop and then check the turn? If you don't know where you're at in the hand then lead the turn and if he raises again then consider folding but by checking you open the door for him to bet you off KK with TP/TK-SK or a second semi-bluff. Check only if you think his range is more likely TP hands and straight draws and that he'll fold to your bet but bet those hands when you check. Bet the turn when you think he'll call TP hands and draws and raise with his sets (which he'll do) so that you can fold. As played, you have no idea where you are or he is and so if you check-raise shove you're most likely only getting called by better hands but if you call his turn bet you're also calling most rivers of which some times your ahead. Your hand has showdown value but not against a range that would call a turn check-raise shove so call. What are you thinking about the river? Are you check calling blanks so that you keep his betting range wider? Would he bet TP/TK-SK on the river with the way the hand played? Is he only betting sets or is he betting sets and missed draws on the river? Tough spot and curious as to your choice and results.

Hoping that he would shove AJ or QQ or even an OESD over my raise, but the call and small turn bet seems to weight his hand towards a set after an UTG limp and call of a reasonably large raise preflop, which is usually a PP rather than broadway cards or suited connectors. If I make it $120-140, he's probably only calling or shoving with QQ and sets, and he might even hero fold the QQ.

He rarely gets out of line, but he does like to test me with the min-raises on occasion. I think he tends to play a little differently in heads-up pots against me than how I've seen him play against other people. After he calls the 3b I can rule out all bluffs, and he should be checking back Jx and 9T on the turn.

When you say he likes to test you with min-raises, have you had to fold to one of his minraises in past hands? in other words, is this a routine line in villain's play?

Regardless, I think because one of the OESDs got there, now turn should be a clear fold, due to your range of villain. If it was me, I would include AJ or a decent PP in his range because they always put you on AK

He's a reg so I've played against him a lot of times. Occasionally I have to fold to the min-raise, a few times we've got it in on the flop or turn, and I've 3b him like this before on the flop and he's folded a few times then too. So yeah, kind of all over the place but he does like to do the "min-raise to see where I'm at" thing more often than most.

This would have been helpful to know in the original post, since the above can't be inferred from "plays pretty straightforward and rarely gets out of line."

Yea what RBpro said... wtf is up with your bet size on flop, and why after you three bet him would you not lead on turn??? If I'm villain and see u weak c-bet on flop I'm going to reraise you with a ton of hands. Then u three bet his min raise and his flat tells you he wants to see what you are going to do on later streets. Then you check??? And now your shocked he bets big into you?? I would make that move with air and be very confident I have plenty of fold equity. Bottom line... you bet bigger on flop he just flat calls or folds... then if you lead on turn he either folds or calls/raises with better hand and you can confidently check it down on river or toss your cards into the muck.

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in what universe is an opponent who routinely min-raises and folds to a min-3b someone who "rarely gets out of line"? unless that line is one to board the short bus?

OP, you play this hand weirdly, which i think is alright, but it seems like your intentions was to not play it weirdly which leads to confusion on the turn.

if you state he does the flop min raise to see where he is at, then you can also assume that a % of the time when he does this, its with something he perceives as value. combining this with your relatively small cbet (note, my personal preference is the cbet 1/2 pot in most spots as the PFR) and your small reraise. he can view this as a cheap rebluff. the whole he knows you know he min raises for value and thus are capable of bluff mini 3 betting.

however, you could provide more information on what you think his limp/call range is pre. you state he can have QQ here. if that is true, he can also have JTs+ or 99 and just refuse to believe your line.

i agree his turn bet seems strange. is he the type to take showdown lines with a marginal pair after flop aggression, or can he value bet remotely thin?

more information about how the hands you have played with him prior would be helpful and definitely would impact the decisions in this hand

as played, i probably shrug call the turn since i would feel i induced this silliness after the mini flop 3 bet and expect the river to go check/check. if he shoves the river on a brick, it'd be a tough spot, my action would depend on how i feel about his value betting tendencies.

i also think people who are so eager to flat the flop are missing a lot of value here. esp if we combine the fact that OP cbet only half pot and that villian has a history of taking this line. also, OP states that villian is capable of raise/folding here, which means a 3b bluff here is profitable a % of the time as well.

plus if we add in the additional implications of us b/c this flop and then trying to get to showdown cheaply. regardless of the outcome, villian (and other people at the table for this session + potential future ones) might easily adjust to us and start minraising us on all sorts of flops in position knowing we slow down without the absolute nuts.

his turn sizing not very strange, its pretty good actually.

@op as played though just check shove the turn, he has no air and i would discount a lot of 2pair combos because you just dont see ppl flat them that often on this texture so the majority of his range probably consists of Jx with the 9 set combos and who knows maybe throw in 2 combos of QQ

just shove and hope he doesnt think to much and calls because he has TP.

Results:

EDIt

nh wp