Hero (HJ, £300): Middle-aged white guy, dressed like a banker, mainly because I am one. Been at the table about 40 minutes; bought in for £200 so I'm up a bit on the session. I'm usually viewed as a rock, so will show some bluffs every now and then to make it a bit easier to get paid when I hit. Probably viewed as a reasonably solid/small winner.

Villain (UTG+2, £350): I've only played with him 4-5 times. Seems solid; I recall being impressed with some of his reads in previous sessions. I've never seen him pull off a complete bluff, but then it's not like I have many hours playing with him. My impression from previous sessions is that he knows how to lay down a hand in the face of significant heat. That kind of goes into the relevant near-term history: about 20 minutes prior, I three-bet shoved a 848 board when villain was the pre-flop raiser and I was in the BB with air. V2 folded pocket Jacks face up. I showed the bluff.

The hand: I'm in the HJ with A A.

One limper, Villain limps, folds to me, and I make it £9 which has been a typical raise for the table. Limper calls, villain calls.

Flop (£30): 10 4 2

V1 checks. V2 bets £15. That seems a bit small to me - most of villain's c-bets had been in the 2/3rd pot size range. But he's betting into the pre-flop raiser. I think about raising but decide to just call and eval. Other guy folds so we're heads up.

Turn (£60): 10 4 2 Q

Villain now CHECKS.
Hero bets £40. Villain insta-minraises to £80.

Pot is now £180, and it's £40 to call. Hero....?

I would raise to about 15-20$ pre flop. But when he bets 15 on flop I'm raising 45-55$. I'm putting him on an over or top pair good kicker. But on flop I would try to get it all in. If he has a set then thats just lucky but based off board I would reraise 90% every time

I would probably raise the flop to get value from TP hands which is a big part of his range. If V 4 bets, I would probably fold unless you have a solid read that V will do this with just TP. This board is pretty dry so when he donks, he probably has at minimum a PP below TP.

as played, I would fold unless you fee that he can turn his middle pair hands into a bluff OTT. If you eliminate the middle pair hands from his range on the turn, then his equity will go way up and consist of mostly 2 pairs and sets.

Raise flop. Call now, villain has no idea what he is doing, see the river.

I definitely considered raising the flop. Two main reasons why I didn't: One, obviously betting into two people including the preflop raiser looks pretty strong, so I wasn't quite ready to bloat the pot up yet. Secondly - there was a chance that the other guy behind me would tag along if I just called.

Now, I tend to fast-play my sets, but a lot of villains don't - and the flop was very dry, so it wasn't like villain would have needed to charge for any draws if he had a hand.

I can't really put villain on any two-pair hands (would he really be playing 10 4 or 10 2?).

So on the flop, I can't really put him on two pair. With a set, I'd expect him to check the flop and put in a check-raise after the pre-flop raiser puts out a cbet. So the only hand that made sense to me was a hand like JJ, QQ, KK. Obviously QQ has me crushed but I'm still ahead of JJ and KK.

On the turn, some draw-ish hands get a bit more equity, but would a hand like KJ bet the flop?

Anyway, I decided to take the advice of Bart Hanson, who often talks about calling a turn bet to eval what villain does on the river.

Hero CALLS.


River: (£220): 10 4 2 Q A

Villain insta-shoves all-in. The pot is about £470, it's about £250 to call.


Hero....?

lol what

insta call

if he floated you with KJ then nh or played his 53 in odd fashion, but you have the third nuts

he probably has a set, q10 or maybe even aq or a10

should be snap call on river imo, the only hand that beats you is KJ/53, and his line doesn't really make sense for KJ. 53s is possible I suppose but would be a big leak in his game if he is limp/calling with 53s in UTG+2.

Turn is a bit more interesting, his range on the turn would be 10Q, 1010, QQ, KK, AA, 22, 44 or something like.

Personally I think the turn is probably a fold... you're maybe drawing to 8 outs (A/4/2) and maybe to 2 outs (9 combos of 8 outs vs 12 combos of 2 outs, and 3 combos where you're ahead, 1 combo of chop).

Flop play is fine. Many times this is top pair with a "see where I'm at bet" that won't call a raise whereas he might fire again after "putting you on 2 overs." The flop is super dry too so you can't really be hurt by many turn cards.

I would have folded to the turn bet. There are not alot good draws for him to be getting tricky with other than 53s. Leading into the preflop raiser, then check/minraising the turn is super strong, especially when the turn is an overcard to the T. Since he's not a spewy idiot, he almost always has one pair beat with this line. His range is almost entirely 2 pairs and sets.

I don't understand why you even posted the river when you have top set. I will find you in real life and smack you if you are upset because he ended up havin an awfully played KJ.

Raise more pre

Raise flop

As played, flat turn raise.

As played, call river with a boner.

Turn raise looks like QT or a set.

Snap call river.

Horrible flop and turn play. He often has a set here - using a small bet on the flop to start building the pot and find out if you have an overpair. Otherwise 5-3 building the pot on the flop for a straight - this looks less likely given the turn but not impossible given that he raised small.

Where does Bart's advice come into it? You have a strong hand pre, get a dream flop and let the V take the initiative away from you without betting to define his range.

It looks as if the River saved you eg if he had a set or if he Turned top 2- if it didn't, you only have yourself to blame so snap call and put the result down to luck if you win or the cost of poker lessons if you don't.

Yes, so obviously the river is a snap call, since I called the turn - I thought my Aces were still good, so obviously I think my set is still good.

aaaces, I completely disagree with your assessment that flop and turn play is 'horrible'. What's your preferred line on the flop? What's your rational for raising? Do you think worse is ever calling? Do you think better is ever folding? 'Trying to define villain's range' is NOT a reason to bet.

Obviously I'm posting this hand specifically because of the turn decision. Just to repeat my thinking at the time:

- I was the preflop raiser. The flop is uber-dry. As of the flop, I can't put villain on two pair, because T4, T2 or 42 seem a bit unlikely. If villain has a set, a check-raise on the flop would seem like the more natural play: check to the pre-flop raiser, who would almost certainly put out a c-bet on a dry board ripe for attacking, and put in a hefty raise.

On the turn when the Q hits, he now checks, I put out a decent-size bet...and he min-raises. Now I was thinking that a hand like QT made a lot of sense. I also thought about 53 as a possibililty, but why would someone on an OESD make it more expensive to hit his draw when it didn't look like he would have much fold equity with such a small raise? (pot about 180, 40 to call, so getting over 4:1).

A set seemed possible...but if I had a set, I'd be making this raise a lot bigger.

So I put villian on either a hand like AT/QT or JJs+. Getting over 4:1, I think the turn is a call + eval river. I didn't think 53 would raise the turn, so I dismissed that from his range, as well as KJ (since I don't think he donks the flop with essentially air).


Anyone see any flaws in my thinking above?

i dont mind your flat call on the flop at all, if someone donks a flop like this, he usually has a pretty weak hand that wants to take it down right now, like 55-99 or something, a raise doesnt accomplish that much and also puts your hand face up, unless u make some bluffraises in this spot too with overcards.

for those who say raise flop and fold to 3bet, wouldnt that be a case of turning our hand into a bluff/ raising for info?

flop call is good imo, keep his range wide.

when the turn is checked to you, you gotta bet. then he minraises??? like canoodles says, he has no idea what he is doing, and in such a situation, when u have AA, u gotta call. river u hit top set and get shoved into, getting 2:1 (not 4:1). easy call.

The 4:1 referred to the turn call.

Obviously the river is a 'my chips beat his into the middle' insta-call.

so what did he have?

I would suggest gettin in the habit of raising a larger amount preflop. $9 is just asking for a 4way pot where now everyone is getting a great price to make life difficult for us.

[Aside: Last night at my 1/3 table, there were a few people kinda doing a "standard" raise (even after limpers) to like lol amounts of $10-$12, and sure enough they contested pots 6ways (which is great for me if I'm in the pot with a speculative hand). But every time I came in for a raise, I'd start at $15-$20 and then add $3-$5 for every limper. I got complaint and mumbles. I also got action, cuz dammit, they didn't come all the way to the casino to fold their 87s due a $25 preflop raise when they can easily flop a monster and get their remaining $125 in the middle.]

I would also just flat the flop, even though we probably have an image that is worth a raise. If we raise the flop, we very quickly begin playing for stacks, and, in spite of our image, I'm not convinced we want to do that. I could be dead wrong.

I might just check back the turn, but that might be super weak. This guy thinks we are bluffy, so he'll probably pay off two more streets, but it will be difficult for him to do with a weak hand (such as Tx) especially now that the Q has shown up. I'm also a little scared at being played back at here due to our recent tangle; he might also think his Tx is a monster and put us in a difficult situation (again, for stacks) with a check/raise. I'm totally aware this might be too weak, but I'm kinda cool with going for one more bet of value on the river. The board really ain't very drawy (what, we're afraid he bet the flop with KJ?). And there's still a chance he has us crushed. I then bluff catch or value bet the river. Too passive?

As played, I fold, even given our recent history. If we call the minraise, we're now playing for stacks against someone who bet into the preflop raiser plus just check/raised the turn. I'm not willing to play for stacks here.

As played, super easy river call. I'm not sure what villain showed up with yet, but methinks he was shoving the river the whole time. Don't we have to consider that when calling the turn? Or was catching our two outer our plan?

GtreatingAAlikeonepairwhich,oddlyenough,itisG

I just don't see how AA is going to be profitable long term by putting in 3% of our stack preflop only to commit the rest of it on non-scary flops every time. Especially when villain should hardly ever show up with an overpair here (he's overlimping a lone limper with KK-JJ, really?). This sounds like Overplaying Big Pocket Pairs 101 to me.

Pot will be $220 on the river with us having $196 left behind. What's our river plan?

Even though I seem to be in the minority (actually, I think I'm the only one who suggested it), we don't have to bet the turn, IMO. Stop worrying about the draws. HOC clearly states this: the times he is on a draw on the turn AND makes his draw on the river is nothing to be concerned about. Otherwise, the other 95% of the time he's not going to be on a draw and/or he's not going to make it and we make value by either (a) bluffcatching (cuz we look like we have nothing, so villain could now be betting absolutely anything) or (b) value betting ourselves if checked to (cuz our hand looks FOS weak, he only has to call off one bet instead of being faced with the prospect of facing two bets on the turn, etc.).

I mean, if he's a weak calling station monkey, sure, bet the turn. In my experience, most regs are above weak calling station monkey status.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Preflop, I make it 11 instead with any holdings. As played no problem. On the flop you should raise. I wouldnt worry about getting blown off the hand. There is no flush draw. They will put you on an overpair and wont think you're folding (which you will) to a 3bet. Most people will call with a pair or a draw and you define the hand more. On the turn you need to worry about a fair bit. As played just call. River is snap call.

On second thoughts maybe you wont fold vs villain 3bet cause he may be trying to get one back on you.

At the time, I thought there was a reasonable chance villain was on a hand like AT, QT, with part of his range sets, a small part of his range being random overpairs, and a very very small part of his range being complete air (i.e., making a play at me from the previous hand). My plan was to call the turn and eval; if a non-Ace card had hit and he had shoved, I was folding. The more interesting decision would be if he had checked a non-ace; my plan was probably to just check it back.

The whole hand really had me thinking about my overall play. I played the hand based on my read - but the major mistake I made was basing my play specifically on villain's very first action - the donk bet on the flop. I simply could not believe that villain would do that with a set (and I had already dismissed two pair hands).

For me, it reinforced the point that the later the street and the bigger the pot (and bet), the more credible villain's actions become. It's a simple and uber-obvious point, but in this hand, my initial reaction 'he can't have xx or yy here because he did zz on the flop' should have been over-ridden by the fact that he donked into the pre-flop raiser, then check-raised the turn but gave himself no fold equity so he's not afraid of a call, then pushed his stack in the middle after the scariest card in the deck hits the river, when said villain has (in my limited history with him, anyway) shown no evidence of being a spewtard.

I think I have to bet the turn when he checks, and I think the bet sizing is fine. Calling the check-raise, however, is probably a mistake, pot odds be damned - best case scenario is he has a hand that I said he couldn't realistically have (T4, T2, 24), and even then I'm drawing to five outs (an Ace or a board-pairing card that doesn't hit his two-pair hand).

As it turns out....Villain had pocket 4s, so I sucked out on him pretty badly. Villain's turn play is interesting, because I was 100% folding to a bigger turn bet: when I bet $40, if he had made it $110 or so instead of CIB, I'm done with the hand. So the min-raise was small enough and deceptive enough to keep me in the hand....even though I no longer think I was 'priced in' to call.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good; I learned a -lot- from this hand. Thankfully it wasn't as painful of experience as the lesson probably should have been.

Grunch;
pretty weird flop bet. First instinct is to raise, but if he's a reg- that semi knows what he's doing why would he be donk betting small into this super dry board? If we raise we fold out most of his air and the only draw is 35 which is unlikely. He might call a raise otf if he has an overpair but he'll probably fold turn. So after thinking I elect to just call flop with intention of scratching my head when he bets again-more than likely calling again(being passive sucks but again if we show any aggression at any point we just get worse to fold and what has us beats continues; the board is so dry).

When he checks turn I'm b/f a little over 1/2 pot. The line he takes of bet small flop then c/r turn just screams QT or a set.
As played, ldo we snap call and get to see how badly he played this hand, then scoop the pot.