1/2 nl

Hero ($700): 55wm LAG, running all over table. They have seen me open raise anything from 75s to KK
Villain ($300): 65wm, TAG. Knows how to open raise and 3bet. Tends to get discombobulated when money is in play; makes big mistakes in big pots

Action

1 limp to hero in CO, raises $10 with Q2s
Villain on BTN calls, everyone else folds

Flop (~20) Q88r

Hero bets 15
Villain raises 35

Hero?

(Kids, don't try this at home. You're supposed to fold Q2 pre, even if it's suited)

Snap fold. What can you be ahead of other than pure bluff.

Can't win every hand and this is a spot I'm not willing to get deeply involved in.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using 2+2 Forums

Fold pre. As played, fold now.

Did villain call on the button? Or did he limp/call then check-raise?

Villain is on BTN, fmp

Interesting that you mentioned this. The way I see things, there are two types of mistakes or leaks you can have in big pots.

(1) calling too often when you should be folding
(2) folding too often when you should be calling

At 1/2, a vast majority of my opponents have leak (1), and very few have leak (2).

Whether or not you believe V has leak (2) is key in how you proceed IMO.

If V is like most 1/2 V's, then I probably just fold to the flop raise. You're in RIO hell with this hand OOP, and I think it's unlikely that you will be able to see a cheap showdown.

If you believe V has leak (2), then I take the following lines with some estimated level of frequency:

(A) just fold (60%)
(B) Hollywood a little, call the flop raise, go for a turn c/r, expecting that V follows up his weak flop raise with a weak turn bet. (30%) This seems like the most logical way to represent having binked an 8 with whatever crap you might be playing.
(C) Reraise the flop to ~100 (10%). This represents strength but not trips. V will probably read this play to be AQ, KK, AA, and your hopes are for V to release TPGK.

Well, Q2 is pretty terrible and should be folded pre. Even in late position it's almost always -EV and used as a bluff. If you want to raise light pre, I'd used suited connectors and gappers. Something that at least has a chance to hit big, as well as bluff.

As played, I'm tempted to reraise. I assume villain knows you're playing loose-aggressive. If he really had a Q or 8, he would want to call expecting you to bet again on the turn and trap you. Folding is obviously easy and maybe correct. I might reraise to $80. It's big enough to threaten villain's entire stack if he continues and small enough that you can safely give up if villain calls or reraises.

Notes: I have no idea what this means: "Tends to get discombobulated when money is in play."

PF: I don't think even a good LAG is raising Q2s. Fold.

F: So now were OOP with a horrible hand. We connect with the flop. The "TAG" Villain didn't 3B so he likely doesn't have TT+, AK. He could have KQ or QJ or maybe QT. Even with your image I think he is folding Q2 to Q9.

Does Villain know you are the type of LAG that fires big with multiple barrels. If so, maybe he does have a premium poker pair.

Anyway...as played, this raise by a "TAG" screams that you are beat. He has basically min raised you. If we call here what's our plan for the hand? Are we continuing to the river with TP-horrible-K?

I mean we decided to play Q2 and we actually flopped something so are we really going to fold?

I don't even know what to say. I guess you could raise to 120 and fold to raise. If he calls, you're done with the hand.

Unlike PAHWM recently which had SB w/ Q2s, where I was an very much in the fold pre camp, I think this is ok. If BTN folds, we have position and hopefully skill to beat SB or BB, that's 2 out of the 3 in the "what you need to play good poker" triangle (other being 'good cards').

But since the BTN called, I'd probably just play this as a bluff catcher, not cbet, c/c flop/turn reasonable bets, c/f to a river bet. A lot of Vs will check back flop with air, bink a middle card, like a 6 and bet turn, and check river.

OP commentary.

Pre:

I love this seat. I have a bunch of fit-or-fold fish to my right and three tight players to my left. In the blinds, two short-stacked little old men who fold the blinds every time. CO is almost as good as BTN at this table.

My TAG friend will probably end the party soon, but hasn't started to adjust yet, unless you count eye rolling and heavy sighs.

There are a couple of ways to win, best way is to isolate the fish and take it down with cbet. I can spike the Q and get looked up by second pair because they are tired of my ****. There's a ~10% likelihood of flopping a flush draw. What these things have in common is, I need to be heads up. With more than one limper to my left, or if the blinds are too eager to call, this is a fold. As is, I come in with almost any two cards.

Flop

Paired board with overcard. Dry and scary at the same time. The bigger the spread between the overcard and the pair, the easier the hand is to play. It's hard to hit this board, and really difficult to hit it hard.

Inasmuch as people are on to my bull****, I figure a flop bet here could get calls from hands like 88 or AK. However, I really don't want a call here. Hand would basically be impossible to play unless villain checks it down. I'm really hoping for a fold here.

The raise really makes things interesting. I sincerely doubt this guy is getting cute with 8x. It's either a queen or nothing and I reckon my kicker will prove to be somewhat insufficient.

What I have in my favor is information asymmetry. He has no way to limit my range, I could well be sitting on 8x.

Time to make this fella squirm.

Hero says "let's make it 100" in the same tone of voice as saying "let's go get some ice cream."

Villain tanks. "Well, like they say. Found out what I needed to know. Nice hand."

akjohn, you have won an all-expenses-paid vacation to the fabulous Greektown Casino (Detroit is great this time of year)

i'll bank this until st. pattys day and drink my face off at 'ol sheleighly's.

Before this gets moved to BBV, I'll mention that I posted this primarily to give people insight into how a LAG thinks, to help one develop effective counterstrategies. Venice 10 once said, you will meet a fair number of "work in progress" LAGs at 1/2, but very few "good" LAGs. Assume that is the case for me (I do).

Here's what I think is happening in this hand.

The table will adjust to aggressive play fairly quickly. The first round of adjustment is typically heralded by someone calling the LAG out. "Do you raise every single time?. This serves as an important signal to the other players that it's time to shift gears. Round one consists of two related things:
1. Implicit collusion, where the players gang up on the LAG. For the next few hours, every pot will go 4 ways.
2. Players broaden their cold calling range, with the plan being to make a hand and trap. The trap is typically sprung via donk bets, check-raises, limp-reraises, or (if LAG is OOP) simply raising the cbet.

LAG needs to recognize this and adjust immediately:
1. Being out of position is now officially a disaster, so careful attention to this is required.
2. Opening range needs to be adjusted.
3. Post-flop aggression needs to be reduced. Cbet frequency goes down; if a free card can help, take it

People are still playing fit-or-fold, so there is still money to be made. Also, early in phase one, ratcheting the aggression up can win pots. So for a period of time, raising donk-bets and sometimes re-raising c/r or ip raises can win a pot.

This hand was villain's first try at opening up his cold-calling range. He hasn't yet changed anything else in his game plan; I was pretty sure I could shove him off any queen with a big enough bet.

Again, people will adjust to this very quickly. They typically never quite get around to 3betting pre, which shuts me right down. But they do eventually get good at calling me down. At that point I have to just settle down and play normal TAG, albeit with a lot of action when I do make a hand. Once that wears them out, the table typically goes cold. This illustrates what I think is an important principle, which is that the fish can only stand up to so much pressure before they tighten down and start playing optimally. Any given table is only good for up to six hours, after which it's probably best to go home; playing like this is exhausting.

At any rate, when you are adjusting to a LAG, it is important to avoid ineffectual adjustments, bring game and money. And, any LAG who still has any money will be very sensitive to the mood of the table and should adjust like lightening. You should too.

I think most villains at 1/2 tend to get super MUBSY in these spots -- nh. I posted something like this about two years ago and DGI basically told me to go jump off a cliff.

EDIT: My hand also took place in Detroit, although it was at Motor City. Who plays at Greektown, lol.

Thanks for the thread. I really learned a lot from reading AbqDave's commentary.

+1.

Abq, how deep are your $1/2 games playing? I ask because I'm experimenting with LAG play when the situation calls for it. However, I revert to tighter play due to stack sizes being roughly 100 bb or less. Sometimes I have the option to move tables, sometimes no. Your take?

So, play your opponent and change as necessary? I wouldn't call that being a LAG, I'd call it playing poker/playing football/playing basketball/playing baseball/playing hearts/etc.

I like this line of thought. I'm not a LAG, but I've certainly raised something like Kxs or Qxs from the CO or BTN over a limper before so I won't comment on pre.

But I don't like c-betting this flop OOP. If we get called, V is unlikely floating and even if he is what are we going to do on the turn? C/c allows us to get value from the portion of V's range that would fold to a c-bet but may bluff c-bet himself or bet a lower PP. I'm probably c/c and trying to get to a cheap showdown but folding to further aggression.

As played, I would fold here nearly 100% of the time in practice, though I am tempted to consider a min-raise to try to take it down here and be done with the hand if V calls.