2-100SL (Colorado's closest to NL)

The cast of characters:
V1: UTG +1 (~$300) Total maniac. Tries to win every pot. Will ALWAYS bet if checked to him. Won big pot earlier when he raised PF, called 3-bet from Old Man Nit, and then bet out on T64r flop and then called OMN's shove with 69off saying "it's coming, I can feel it." It did, 9 OTR to crack OMN's AA.

V2: MP (~185) Middle aged female regfish. Been steaming and complaining about V1's play for two hours. Called a lot of his raises PF and folded to c-bets saying "just keep playing that way." Tapping the tank like crazy and also making it clear that she's a typical LP showdown monkey, who is super afraid of any wet board. Believes in protecting her hand, rather than extracting.

Hero: BB ($285) Neutral image. Been card dead as *&^(&* so they may think I'm tight, OTOH, b/f a couple of times earlier in the session (one to V2) with TPGK-type hands that I didn't show, so she might think I'm bluffy.

Three limpers toV2 (including V1) who pops it to $15. Her range for this is TT+ QJ+. Lower pairs, or paint/rag she limps along. One caller.

pot = $37
Hero looks down at QQ and raises to $45
V1 snap calls, range is super-wide here, really doesn't narrow it at all from ATC.
V2 agonizes for a while, makes a couple of disparaging comments about V1 and how she has to get him out of the hand or he'll suck out on her with some redic hand (this is not Hollywooding, it is completely consistent with her approach) and eventually raises max ($100) Her range for this is JJ+, maybe AK.
Random snap folds

Pot = $272
Read indicates that V1 is almost certainly calling. If so, this "narrows" his range to 22-TT, KTo-ATs, suited aces and connectors (no way he passed up the chance to raise higher hands twice)
Hero: ????

id be happy to get QQ in against a lag tard and a tilted nit. Just hope you can hold against their hands.

shove and be happy.

Based on your V2 read she is NEVER doing this with JJ or AQ and I seriously doubt she does this w AK. Sounds nitty bit u can fold QQ here. the beauty of this game at this level is that the regfish 4-bet range is so narrow that a QQ fold in this spot is easy . I know it sucks to have such a good hand vs V1 but V2s hand is face up as KK / AA here imo

I 100% agree she never 4-bets HU vs me without AA/KK, but how might the presence of the hated maniac affect her range?

I could be very wrong here, but I might call here and shove non A non K flops to avoid scaring out V1, but it does put you in a bad place if an ace or a king comes on the flop

Yea this kinda sucks, but she doesn't have to have only AA/KK, doesn't really matter what V1 has, it's probably garbage. This is a shove because of V1 has $300, you have $285 and V2 only has $185. Against V1 your in really good shape to win the $200 side pot, the main pot is $555 and against a steaming nit, your not in terrible shape, most likely a flip, but if not your standing to $200 anyways, and maybe you suck out against her kings or aces. There too much money from the idiot to fold, and against the nit whos steamed your not doing terrible enough to fold, unless this is your rent money.

Steaming nits whine, complain, bitch, and tap the glass, but what they DON'T do is steam 4-bet shove with 22-JJ, KQ, AQ.

Hero 3-bets $45 which in a 1/2 NL game is significant. V2 comes over the top for the max bet....

Sorry, no way QQ is good here. Best case scenario, and I mean absolute best case is Hero is up against AK and in my opinion, that is probably less than 15% of the time.

The remaining 85% of the time, QQ is up against AA/KK.

Basically, what is the point of having our awesome poker skillz if we can't fold QQ to an F-ing nit who max 4-bets us???

Don't be blinded by the drooling maniac. Her hand is face up as AA/KK here and its not even close in my opinion.

This isn't 2/5NL where we are 200BB deep and facing a possible isolation raise.

This is 1/2 spread limit where a nit basically goes all-in for 90BB regardless of Hero's decent 3-bet.

Calling here with QQ is akin to setting money on fire. Again, we aren't talking about a maniac, donk, or fish, we're talking about an ABC whining nit who is never doing this with 22-JJ, AQ.

spread limit?

its also no guarantee you get the donk to go all-in come flop and turn

"hoping" to win a $200 side pot when you start off with $285 isn't a very good winning poker strategy.

its a capped betting game. 2-100 spread limit means you can bet in increments anywhere between $2 to $100

so, if someone bets $10, you can raise to anywhere from $20 to $110.

you find spread limit games in places that don't allow no-limit.

What are you talking about? With basically a $200 freeroll your only risking $85 to win a $470 pot, which is 5.5 to 1, even if he has aces you have to put the chips in here before the flop cause your getting %20 better odds than you need. Your shoving pre so the donk isn't folding on the flop or turn. Folding is a mistake, hold your breath and hope for the best.

The problem I have with this is the sequence of events that would get the maniac all-in.

V2 raises $15, Hero raises to $45, V1 calls $45 THEN V2 raises $145....

in order to get all this money in, Hero must 5bet to $245...

this means that V1 must then be willing to THEN call $200 more and that is asking a lot for even the donkiest of donks.

Now, if the order was ...

V2 raises $15, Donk calls $15, Hero raises $45, V2 raises $145, THEN donk calls $145...

then yes, Hero has a very good chance of getting all this money in the pot and doing the free roll your are talking about.

However, that is not the case.

This is how it would go:
Three limpers to V2 (including V1) who pops it to $15. One caller.
Hero: BB QQ and raises to $45
V1: UTG+1 snap calls
V2: MP a raises to $145
Ok here's it what would happen.

V1 - invested $45 has $240 left, and literally calls anything
Now its your turn shove the $285 in, or you can also call and shove the flop, maybe V1 will shove over.

Regardless you can get the money in pre or on the flop, your in too good a spot to to play weakly here. Keep shoveling the money in

You have myopia and can't see past the donk. There is a limit to how donkey a donk can be and this would have to be a super drooler to call a 5-bet shove for $245 with his range which I believe is 22-TT, Axs, Kxs, 76-KQ. There is a world of difference between "Gambooling" with your SC for $45, and stacking off preflop for 100BB+ blinds with garbage.

Hell, according to your logic, Hero should have raised V2 by $115 pre right as the first raise counting on the donk to "snap call" because the donk is a donk???

And then factor in the fact V2 is playing AA/KK face up.

Hero has 20% equity vs V2 and roughly 77% equity vs V1

do the math and Hero just doesn't have the odds to do what you are claiming hero should do. not even close.

We will agree to disagree.

no worries man, its nothing personal. i like hearing other people's point of view since there is almost never one single way to play a hand, depends on your style.

Another situation where a paraphrase is in order: Super nit comes to life and wants to play stack a donk, do I get in the middle of it with my QQ?

No thanks, I'll find another spot.

I'm getting it in here, $100 at a time apparently. Re-raise the max.

With the amount of dead money in there, plus what is soon to be in there from V1, you only need either AK or JJ to be part of V2's range for this to be +EV. BTW, your character descriptions were quite good... a tilted player here is easily making this play with AK and JJ, probably 99-TT, AQs as well, maybe even AJs if she's really pissed off.

Get it in there and run good.

Gaa. I'm a moron. I made a mistake on the action when I posted this. I remembered the pot correctly, but forgot how it got there.

V1 has actually straddled to $5, one limper to V2 who pops it to $15. The rest is accurate. Pot size discrepancy is due to rake. Does this being a straddled pot change anything in anyone's view?

As for read that V1 is calling the 4-bet, he cut out a call and put it in his hand. He has always called when doing this previously. I don't know if that means he's committed enough to call if I shove, but he's def calling V2's be whether I do or not.

A lot of people are referring to V2 as a nit here, which prob fits in this particular hand, but not overall. V2 is a *raising* nit, but a calling station. Since she's the one raising, we can call her a nit here, but generally she's a loose-passive.

Makes me even happier to get it in.

I think I'd raise a lot more preflop. Typically this would be 3x + caller, so at least $60. But then we also have to account for being OOP, plus the fact that super loose V1 will probably also come along, so I'd go to $75. If lady comes over the top of that large 3bet, I guess we can fold (but I haven't done the math, perhaps we might have to call against a AA/KK/AK/~ range)?

no one picked up on how the tilted nit is TILTED from the aggro donk shoving anything? ive played these low stakes live for years and ive seen the TIGHTEST fish who was tilted shove 88 here before. folding here would be burning money. the lagtard presence effects the NITS range, especially if she is tilted from him.

Meh, nits are nits. I've yet to meet a nit that 4-bet tilt shoved (effectively all-in) with 22-JJ, AQ.

If they do that, then by definition they are NOT a nit.

Definition and accurate profiling is essential here, a nit can't all of a sudden stop being a nit when it fits your agenda.

OP said this

This makes the case even more that we are up against AA/KK imo

since I have nothing "new" to offer this thread, i'll spare you a rehashing of my previous arguments.

But I see this all the time on here, either our villains turn into Durr/Ivey geniuses when it fits our agenda, or they turn into the biggest drooling tilting idiots when it fits our agenda.

If you are true to your reads and villain profiling, then this is a fold. "tilting" nits are still nits, and nits don't 4bet shove with 22-JJ, AQ. They just don't and they rarely if ever do it with AK.

Nice to see you back, dgiharris. Where'd you go? Self-imposed ban for a while?

Yeah, i've had a lot of stuff going on but i'm back

I'm with dgiharris.

Our presence in the pot as 3-bettor is more evidence that tilting nit has a huge hand. If they were just tilt-shoving because they're pissed at V1, they'd do it HU, not when another tight player 3bets PF.

Just like loose players school together, tight players often feel it's "us against the fish." I've often had tight players whisper, "go get him" when I raise/3bet with a LAG in the hand. I'd be pretty surprised if JJ and AK were in her range, here.

nice input dgi, i still dont mind stacking off here... (half the time).