V1($120): Mid to late 20s...switches gears between TAG & LAG, but a little more on the LAG side. He is definitely not scared to pull off big bluffs but he is not reckless. Competent hand reader and a regular in the cardroom. Have played against V1 quite a bit and I think we both have a pretty good feel for each other's game (though I'm not sure if he knows I'm aware that he's aware of my game or that I'm aware of his game since we really don't converse with each other much and most players in the cardroom aren't deep thinkers). Thinking player who wins a lot more than he loses. Has been at the table for maybe 10 mins when the hand below comes up.

V2 ($600+): Late 30s to mid 40s....been on an amazing run winning with junk like 57o or k6o (he got $200 in pf with Qs against Ks and sucked out on r). Likes to bet hard when he thinks he has the best hand (k with j kicker would constitute this, aswell as the numerous str and fl he's hit) or when he thinks someone is showing weakness to him in a decent sized hu pot or a scare card falls. Doesn't like to be "bullied" and will rr and call $200+ ai with tp hands when he thinks someone is trying to outmuscle him. Not a complete LAG but definitely not someone who is a regular winner. A recreational player who isn't completely reckless but is letting his big stack get to his head in thinking he's now Phil Ivey.

V3 ($400): 50s to early 60s...LAG, likes to gamble but isn't completely reckless. Doubled up earlier in the session when his AK went up against V2s KJ. Plays too many hands.

Hero ($300): Early 30s....TAG. Had a nice run earlier in the session but have been card dead for a while and have been folding for 2 orbits straight.

The mood at the table has started to get a little lose with players more willing to gamble.

V2 r utg to $10
Utg+1 Calls
V3 mp calls
Hero in hj calls $10 with QhQd (Reasoning behind not RR is I knew there was a good chance if I showed aggression there was a good chance V2 would play back hard at me, whether on f or if he rr pf and I didn't want to put $300 at risk deciding if he's trying to outmuscle me or if he's got me beat when the pot is only $30. I would also have to rr big to get V3 out.)
V1 in SB calls

F($50) 7s 5h 3s
V1 Ck
V2 Ck
Next to act Ck
V3 Ck
Hero thinks for 10 seconds than Ck (I think I should've bet here but with the aggressive players in this hand I knew if a scare card fell there's a good chance I would be faced with a decent sized bet, especially from V1 or V2, but I would like to get input on this line)

T($50) 7s 5h 3s 4s
V1 bets $30
V2 folds
V3 checks his cards, looking hesitant to call but eventually does (probably has q,j, or 10s..think he would have called faster with a Ks and insta with As. I'm thinking he might also have a 7.)
Hero tanks for a little bit and calls (I think I gave away too much info with this tank as V1 knows I could have an overpair and am worried of st and fl)

R($140) 7s 5h 3s 4s 2d
V1 pushes for $80
V2 folds
Hero????

People at Llsnl are never truly balanced, including the good players. They either bluff too much or not enough. A lot of aggro players may raise a lot pre, even 3bet bluff but few have a 4bet bluffing range. I'm 3betting to $45 pre all day long. What you do if you get 4bet depends on his range. Even against a range of KK+, AK+ you have an amazing 40% equity. Add in a few combos of TT, JJ or bluffs and it becomes a lot better.

But the point is you'll rarely get 4bet even by aggro players, especially when your hand looks like QQ+, AK when you 3bet. You lose too much value flatting.

Bet flop always. Turn is close, probably fold but a call is probably ok. Fold river. Ax with one spade got there and there are lots of flushes and straights he could have.

If V3 hadn't called you could make a case for flatting, but probably incorrectly. You should 3bet PF to 4x.
OTF, you really messed up by not betting.
OTT as played, if flat too but you've really butchered this hand that this point.
OTR, just fold.

I went through a phase like this in poker too, where I played so tight that when I finally got a hand I was afraid to bet is because I thought that everyone would know I had a monster. Trust me, the quicker you drop this bad habit the better. In general, just bet your good hands when you get them, and especially so at a gambol table like this. If you do this for a couple weeks and find that you're not getting paid off then open up your game (just a little). Rinse and repeat. The worst thing that can happen is that everyone folds and you take down a pot. And that's really not a bad outcome. Plus, you'll likely get a lot more action than you thought you would, and maybe even more than you bargained for.

I agree with what you said here and honestly I think he's flatting a 3 bet more often than 4 betting, he's almost never going to fold though. I think if I 3 bet to $45 V2 is almost guaranteed to call (especially with the table loosening up at that time), and I honestly don't see V3 going anywhere either. So I would be faced with a $145 pot otf with $255 behind and hope no overcards come, noone hit a set, or hit a monster draw, or donk bets when he thinks his jacks are good on a K 10 4 board.

It would be a tough spot indeed but maybe the math is correct for me to still 3 bet preflop. You have to agree there would be a decent amount of variance you would experience in this spot right?

Grunch.

Okay man, I'm going to give it you straight. You played this hand SUPER scared. This post started out with all this he knows that I know lingo... I thought that there was going to be something here.

Pre-flop is a MUST re-raise situation. I would be going to town with QQ here pre-flop at the table you have described. Why are you worried about getting out muscled? You've got the nuts! These guys are going to hand you their stack with JJ, TT, AK and probably much worse all day long.

3bet to $50-$60... Or as much as you think they will call. Jam/call if they re-raise.

It seems like you are playing scared money here. Honestly I could give you advice on how to play the rest of the hand, but it won't help you if you can't realize the tremendous value you missed throughout this hand.

The flop as played is also a must bet. If a bad situation occurs in the future, you can act accordingly. Assuming you did bet the flop AND got called AND the turn a 9s AND you opponents lead into you (see how many and's I needed to include to describe the situation you described) you can consider folding. But until then bet it like you got it (because you do).

You are actually putting yourself in worse spots by fearing fictional spots in the future. Not to get personal of anything... but if this happens in other areas of your life... You may be sabotaging yourself with your own brain, imagining possible negative outcomes for the future, reacting to them, and life nitting so to speak.

go to http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25.../#post16811173 for some important stats. 62% of the time you will either flop a set or overpair with QQ. so this means 38% of the time you will have an underpair with QQ. is 3betting higher variance? yes of course, but it's part of the game and if you want to maximize your winrate, you have to learn to embrace variance

If they both call, that's a good thing too. You have a hand that crushes both their ranges and less than two pot sized bets left. That is a very good situation to be in. If they hit a set or huge draw, so be it, you just got unlucky. Most of the time, they miss the flop or flop a one pair hand and you get paid off huge. You're always assuming worst case scenarios, that is a huge leak. If they bluff too much of A high or K high flops, then check and let them bluff off their chips. If they dont bluff much at all, you can safely fold A hi or K hi flops.

and i disagree on the sizing for anyone who says 3bet big. 3bet to $45 or so is perfect. one guy is super short stacked so he doesnt matter. if we get two callers, thats great. we want to keep one or two in and let them make big mistakes post flop. now if they're calling $50 or more pre often, then by all means reraise to that amount

If you are certain that V2 will call $45... and that V3 will call behind... Then make it bigger! Set it up so you can shove the flop non A and K high flops! Print money!

There you go finding the worst possible outcome of your action. What if you make it $70 pre-flop, both players call and check to you on a 443r flop and you jam and they call with 55-JJ? These types of things happen too you know...

Ok....I'm guessing a lot of people on this forum are going to agree you have to 3bet preflop in the hand I was involved in. Maybe I will do that if a similar situation arises again with similar type opponents. That's why I post on this forum to get other people's input to help improve my own game.

Getting back to the hand, on the river, after V1 pushed for $80 into $140 pot, I ended up tanking for what seemed like an eternity. I knew he thought he could push me off my hand if I didn't have atleast a 6 for the straight, and given my TAG image he probably thought having a 6 was out of my range given the pot was raised pf. He obviously didn't put me on spades either. For some reason I thought there was a decent amount of time V1 could've been pushing with a 7 or an overpair as he does seem to take delight in making opponents fold stronger hands, so.......

After tanking and almost folding I looked him up and he said "you got it" and flipped over 9s. I think a call wasn't that bad in this spot as the pot was laying me 2.75 to 1. If it's -EV it's not by much I know that.

2.75:1 aren't really that good odds to call.

That means you have to be good 26% of the time to break even. Do you think that this player is bluffing here more than that %? I would also reconsider your read that this guy is a strong player... Based on this hand alone, he seems to have little clue what he's doing.

If I were V1 with a stack of $120, I would probably shove pre-flop with all the dead money. As played he leads into 4 players on a spade turn and then shoves the river that puts 4 to a straight on board? Is he bluffing? Value betting? It doesn't appear that he knows what he's doing at all.

I will also re-iterate that the spots you should be focusing on in this hand are pre-flop and on the flop. Mistakes on those streets put you into the wacky spots OTT and OTR where you have a hand that is way under repped and you have no clue whether or not you are paying off or not.

Grunch (which means I haven't read any resposes yet):

To be honest, you are playing scared money based on the way the hand went down.
And there's a good chance that you are giving people too much credit for being better than they are. Any tough spot that you are in on the river is because you played the hand badly for the 3 streets before hand.

After the weak raise, and the 2 callers this is pretty much an automatic 3bet here for value. I'm almost never flatting in lp with QQ here given the action. We can get a lot of action here from weaker hands namely 66 - JJ, AK/AQ/AJ//KQ and possible some suited connectors that will call us pre flop being way behind. In additon to this, with 150bb, our hand is strong enough that on many flops we can play for stacks in a 3bet pot, where as in a single raised pot with 5+ players we almost never want to play for stacks, and if we do, we are likely coolering someone or getting coolered.

So, I'd raise to $55 or so here. Maybe a touch less if we think that everyone will fold to a raise that big. If we get 1 caller, this leaves us with a nice $85 bet on the flop into $130+ assuming that we get a decent board, and $160 to shove the turn with into $300+. Both times giving villains nice prices to chase their possible draws or second pairs but still the wrong price. Profit.

If we think that V2 will play back at us, good. We are pretty far ahead of a 7% openening range from UTG which is pretty tight for someone with a big stack on a heater who fancys him self better than the table. He might be openening 10%+ from EP, and a lot of which will call our 3bet and we have position on him and the best hand when he calls, that's a great result. Esp if he has been running hot as he will call of wider most of the time. And if we think that he is capable of 4betting you light here with weaker hands like JTs, A3s, 44-88 or whatever else, then that's even more reason to 3bet here to induce him to 4bet with hands that we are way ahead of.

In addition to this, with V1 being so short, one of the better things that we can have happen is that we 3bet, V1 gives the old "fsck it I'm all in" and we snap him off likely 65%+ to win in the $250+ pot. Also, if we think that V3 will call down light pre flop (as you said that you would have to raise here pretty big to make V3 fold), then good. Raise less than you think he will fold to, and let him call. Once again, we are likely way ahead here. We want to get more money in, we don't want people to fold.

The overall idea here is that we want to get people to put money in with a hand that is worse than ours. Sometimes that hard. But from the sounds of it people here like to mix around in pots. They like to get involved, so let them get involved. That's what we want. We just want them to pay too much pre flop to see the flop, and pay too much to see the turn and river when they have a hand that is worse than ours. We don't want to fold them out. We just want to charge them the most that they will call. And that's the important part. When you say that V3 will call wide, ok cool. Do you think that he will call $40? Yes. $50? Yes. $60? No. Ok, then raise to $55 or so. Just under his folding threshold and take his money. Don't make him fold.

Past that, bet the flop.
Call the turn. Fold the river.