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1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown 1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown

07-10-2014 , 10:52 AM
$1/$2 NL at Planet Hollywood, Vegas. It's Vegas, so I don't know anyone other than Mrs. Lossage who doesn't figure in the hand.

I've only played one orbit at this table. Villain is a 30-something guy who seems like he plays a lot. He's opened several pots in that one orbit I've been here, so I'm assuming LAG-like tendencies, but that's from a small sample size. He hasn't had to show anything down.

I'm a 30-something white guy, shaved head. I usually dress nicely, so you could mistake me for a nightclub bro if you weren't paying very close attention.

Effective stack sizes: about $250

Villain (UTG+1): Limp for $2
2 limps
Hero (button) AA: Raise to $12
3 limpers call

Flop ($46): J 10 8
3 checks
Hero: Bet $40
Villain: Raise $100 to $140
2 folds
Hero: ???

I'm fairly new to NL (I played a lot of limit holdem in the early to mid aughts), so maybe this is more obvious than it seems. I assume the only reasonable moves are shoving and folding, since I'm stacking off on virtually any turn card with <$100 behind to win ~$425.

I'll list my other thoughts in a later post in case people want to weigh in first.

Last edited by lossage; 07-10-2014 at 11:00 AM.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 11:19 AM
I personally don't like to mess around with AA preflop. I would've raised a bit more (16-20), especially with 3 limpers already in the pot, not to mention the fact that you are new to the table and don't have a solid read on anyone yet.

As played, I'm probably folding. Too many factors working against you. No read on anyone, no image of yourself to the rest of the table, and a very wet board. Several hands already have you beat. And there are a ton of hands that might be behind at this point, but are heavily favored against your one pair.

Let it go and move on to the next hand.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atsuss33
[T]here are a ton of hands that might be behind at this point, but are heavily favored against your one pair.
I don't know about "heavily." If he turned the best possible drawing hand face-up (J9?), then I'm about a 60/40 dog, and shoving is break-even-ish. I'm at least a thin favorite against most other hands that are behind.

The rest of your post seems reasonable to me. Thanks.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 12:04 PM
Fold.

His range should be really strong here for a few reasons:

-You raised pre-flop, got a flop that connects with a lot of your range, then bet big on the flop. You look pretty strong here, and he commits his stack anyways.
-He has 2 other people still in the hand to contend with, not just you.
-You block all AXhh combos.
-He's never slow-playing 2 pair or better on a board that wet.

The bottom of his range here is probably something like 89, QJhh, or T8, depending on how aggro he actually is. The bulk of his range has you drawing pretty thin.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 12:33 PM
Raise more pre.
Fold. He's got a combo draw or 2pr+, so you're either a slight favorite or way behind.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lossage
I don't know about "heavily." If he turned the best possible drawing hand face-up (J9?), then I'm about a 60/40 dog, and shoving is break-even-ish. I'm at least a thin favorite against most other hands that are behind.

The rest of your post seems reasonable to me. Thanks.


It's a close fold I think.
His range probably isnt as wide as this but say he can show up with : 88, 99, QJ, Q9, JT, J9, J8, T9, T8, 97, 98 you have 35% equity, Getting 1.6 to 1 on our money we need like 40% equity. He probably has a few other combos of hearts such as 9hXh and QhXh etc and maybe AJ, KJ.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lossage
$1/$2 NL at Planet Hollywood, Vegas. It's Vegas, so I don't know anyone other than Mrs. Lossage who doesn't figure in the hand.

I've only played one orbit at this table. Villain is a 30-something guy who seems like he plays a lot. He's opened several pots in that one orbit I've been here, so I'm assuming LAG-like tendencies, but that's from a small sample size. He hasn't had to show anything down.

I'm a 30-something white guy, shaved head. I usually dress nicely, so you could mistake me for a nightclub bro if you weren't paying very close attention.

Effective stack sizes: about $250

Villain (UTG+1): Limp for $2
2 limps
Hero (button) AA: Raise to $12
3 limpers call

Flop ($46): J 10 8
3 checks
Hero: Bet $40
Villain: Raise $100 to $140
2 folds
Hero: ???

I'm fairly new to NL (I played a lot of limit holdem in the early to mid aughts), so maybe this is more obvious than it seems. I assume the only reasonable moves are shoving and folding, since I'm stacking off on virtually any turn card with <$100 behind to win ~$425.

I'll list my other thoughts in a later post in case people want to weigh in first.
grunch:

I would raise to like 18 pre... this is pretty much a terrible flop for us and with his sizing i think this is a fold... your sizing on the flop turns your hand pretty face up but betting this flop obviously mandatory...

so yeah, id raise bigger preflop, id cbet like 80% pot on the flop and id fold when this dude basically min raises

so yep, fold
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 03:27 PM
Thanks, everyone, for the feedback.

Everybody:
Quote:
RAISE MOAR PF
Fair enough. This was a couple of weeks ago, and I think I'm misremembering; it seems like a small raise for me with three limpers. Perhaps I made it $15 pre-flop? Anyway.

Results, with rationale:
Spoiler:

I tanked for a while and folded, and Villain generously flashes the best possible hand that I'm still beating: J9 (meaning I was barely correct to fold, equity-wise).

Rationale: I was screaming "overpair," and Villain still makes a stack-committing check-raise into 3 opponents. He's aggressive enough pre-flop that I didn't put TT or JJ in his range, but 88 and JT are there. If I didn't have the A, I would have had a harder time folding, since lots of players spaz in this spot with AX. As it was, I figured to be a little ahead or a lot behind and gave up.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 08:45 PM
grunch: shove

or fold. i agree with you it's either shove or fold.

if you have that read, even with small sample size... i'd probably convince myself he's fast playing a draw a good amount of the time. of course made straights and even 2p are well within limp-calling ranges here for anyone. a lag is the one player i could convince myself not to fold to. go with your gut. from reading the post i think i'd be right on the edge and would probably shove.

raise more pre
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 09:52 PM
V's range is narrowed by the fact that you have the nut flush blocker. I fold as played. Also I don't think I've ever not Cbet AA, but this seems like the perfect spot to do it considering your lack of information.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-10-2014 , 10:17 PM
I think you played it well. You could have probably bet 30 on the flop and got the same information -> that you were flipping or way behind.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-11-2014 , 08:57 AM
Thanks, everyone, especially for bet sizing ideas, which has to the weakest part of my game (LOL limited holdthems). The survey results confirm my intuition: fold, but it's borderline; not having the A blocker could break the tie the other way.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-11-2014 , 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloHound
Also I don't think I've ever not Cbet AA, but this seems like the perfect spot to do it considering your lack of information.
Can you tell me more about this? If I take a free turn and it's safe, what's my line?
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote
07-11-2014 , 02:58 PM
I'm generally folding here.
1/2: Overpair, wet flop vs laggish unknown Quote

      
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