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1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop 1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop

11-29-2013 , 01:02 AM
Hello,

Hero [~$325] +2 New Reg to the room, I feel I'm viewed as a conservative LAG.

Villian [~380] UTG 30's White, TAG , very quiet , strong body language.

Hole cards: 88

Villain raises $12 , Hero flats , rest of the table folds.

Flop [$27]

724

Villain bets $18 , Hero raises to 40, Villain raises to 106, Hero ?
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:08 AM
Looks like you're in 2nd place and he flopped a set. It's an awful raise by him coz he's just getting people to fold 2nd best hands, but that's not how they think. I guess he can have an overpair too, but you can't beat any of those either. Fold.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:30 AM
1. Positions at the table greatly help analysis.
2. WTF is a conservative LAG?
3. WTF is strong body language?
4. What are you trying to accomplish with your flop raise? Folding out better? Getting value from worse?
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:39 AM
Dear god I hope you folded. What does he have that you beat? A,7, a straight draw? That's it really.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
1. Positions at the table greatly help analysis.
2. WTF is a conservative LAG?
3. WTF is strong body language?
4. What are you trying to accomplish with your flop raise? Folding out better? Getting value from worse?
All the above plus fold now. If anything next time call and reevaluate on the turn.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
1. Positions at the table greatly help analysis.
2. WTF is a conservative LAG?
3. WTF is strong body language?
4. What are you trying to accomplish with your flop raise? Folding out better? Getting value from worse?
Hello again,

1. Positions are stated after hero and villains effective stack.
2. A LAG skewed on the tighter side.
3. Straight back, serious face, chest out.
4. I raised to fold out missed broadway cards, i feel my hand will be difficult to play in later streets if broadways come. I usually raise light on dry boards like this.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 01:48 AM
Just a semantics issue-he 3bet the flop, he didn't 4bet the flop. Preflop the first bet is the blinds, after the flop the first bet is the first bet.

Also please fold. He likely has a set which beats you. Overpairs are also possible which also beat you.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 02:11 AM
The pot was 45 and you bet 40. Its 22 to call into 90...you don't have the fe that you think you do. Plus I get people call preflop then spazz with AA on a low board but your hand really looks like a middle type of pair with that bet and occasionally a set. I don't want to give V to much credit but what story are you trying to tell here?
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 02:22 AM
The flop raise is pretty bad. If he's bluffing we want to keep his bluffs in the hand and he's never folding anything better. Easy fold as played.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 02:39 AM
Well... considering he's sitting up straight and his chest is out this looks like a fold.

But seriously... name one realistic hand in a "tag" players utg raising range that you're beating here after he's showed a ton of strength on the flop.

Fold.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 03:37 AM
fwiw, i folded , and he showed 23hh
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 03:53 AM
re-evaluate everything you think about poker.

you use terms that make no sense - conservative LAG? I know you addressed this, but ... it's an oxymoron.

you said villain is TAG. no. TAGs don't raise 23 suited from UTG. they just don't.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 04:09 AM
Should've called.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravemoney
fwiw, i folded , and he showed 23hh
Exactly what differentiates good players from GREAT players..
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 07:16 AM
raising flop is pretty bad
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 07:49 AM
This hand can be addressed on a number of different levels. However I think the biggest problem is reads. Your read on villain is off (he's the LAG) and your understanding of what he thinks of you is way off. I understand what a conservative LAG is, but villain thinks you are an aggro-monkey and, frustratingly, that read worked for him here.

If you're going to play loosely and aggressively, there are a number of possible errors. Sounds like you are aware of one error, which is being too randomly loose. The other error is to be too randomly aggressive, and I suspect that's where you are having problems.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravemoney
fwiw, i folded , and he showed 23hh
Good fold, and flat the flop to keep all the 7x hands in

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 09:50 AM
The way you crush a LAG/maniac's soul is tight passive. You want him to be firing at you to collect bets. Your hand is a bluff catcher. There's no legitimate strong hand you could have that would raise the flop, therefore a raise is a sign of weakness, not strength. He was 90% sure you'd fold to a re-raise. That's why he did it.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote
11-29-2013 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravemoney
Hello again,

1. Positions are stated after hero and villains effective stack.
2. A LAG skewed on the tighter side.
3. Straight back, serious face, chest out.
4. I raised to fold out missed broadway cards, i feel my hand will be difficult to play in later streets if broadways come. I usually raise light on dry boards like this.
1. Not sure what +2 is. UTG+2?
2. Black on the whiter side?
3. Rather meaningless without other reads to go with it.
4. Let's break this down.

a) "I raised to fold out missed broadway cards." Why do you want to do this? You're ahead of these. Raising will fold them out yes, but that's all it will do. You manage to fold out all the hands that you beat and only get called/raised by the hands that crush you, which for a TAG is going to be almost entirely PP heavy.

b) "i feel my hand will be difficult to play in later streets if broadways come."

Most players shut down after a cbet is called and play straight forward. A broadway turn isn't going to be the end of the world like you think. Say V has AJ and a Q hits the turn. A GOOD TAG will fire this, but MOST TAGS see it as a danger card that you might somehow have and shut down. The turn can easily check through which puts you in position to take down the pot even if he has something like TT. Yes, we like to avoid putting ourselves in unnecessarily difficult positions, but making very suboptimal plays to avoid them is not good poker. If you're afraid of overcards with 88 then just fold it.

c) " I usually raise light on dry boards like this."

Why? What is your purpose for raising light on dry boards like this? If I know your reasoning I can critique it. If it's just something you've decided that you do, then it likely isn't going to be successful. A good player will eat you alive when you raise light on dry boards. All you accomplish is folding out air. The rest calls you or repops you and then you've bloated the pot with not much going on.
1/2 : Overpair on raggy board, facing 4bet on flop Quote

      
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