Pics?

AQs plays fine as a flat. Your decision mainly depends on MPs opening range. Try to pay attention to how often he's opening, or even better, pay attention to hands he opens and gets to showdown with.

In this situation vs an older guy without any reads I'd probably flat. The wider his opening range, the more incentive I have to 3bet for value, especially in a 1/2 game where people generally do not like to fold to 3bets.

On the flop you should ck/call. I don't think leading is necessarily bad, but there are a few reasons I feel ck/calling is better. First off, by leading out we take away the opportunity for the PFr to c-bet his air. Remember he's going to have air with 2 unpaired hole cards 2/3 of time. Given the fact we have TP and the other two flop cards are low, the chance he has air is even greater. Leading also takes away the opportunity for CO to try to steal the pot when checked to.

You mentioned a few hands you think would check back the flop with marginal showdown value like 77-KK. I don't think should be a huge concern because it's not like were getting 3 streets of value from these hands anyway. We still have the turn/river if villain(s) are stationy to get some value. These hands may also just fold the flop or cbet themselves some% of time. I also think his weaker TP hands are cbetting most of the time.

As far as draws in both opponents ranges, I think there's a pretty decent chance pfr cbets these hands or villain bets them when checked to.

By donking out, we also open up the chance we get raised and are put in a spot which could lead to a big mistake i.e overplaying your hand (stacking off when villains continuing range is stronger than us) or folding when his range is weaker.

As played in this spot, the min-raise could be indicative of a top pair hand "seeing where it's at" so by 3betting the flop, all worse hands may fold. At this point, I would just flat and re-evaluate the turn. I don't think stacking off on the flop without any info is that bad, but 3 bet folding would be awful. If he decides to just go with his worse top pairs and stick it in, it would be an absolute disaster if we fold.

I don't think so, for reasons andees just enumerated. We have good SDV but a 3-bet puts us in a bad spot. 1) As a female, and thus perceived nit, we prob fold out everything we beat that we could have got another bet from and 2) We can't fold to a shove, because as a female, and thus perceived weak-tight, V *might* be turning his hand into a semi-bluff and trying to fold out aces, or better aces, which means really overplaying our hand, imo.

There, I quoted the whole thing.

Folding is not better than calling PF.

I would rather pay an extra BB (put in $9 while everyone else puts in $7) than fold pre.

FWIW, Andees typed out pretty much exactly what I was too lazy to type.

That's either a good thing for my thinking or a bad thing for his*

I still disagree with flop though. I'm happily getting it in exactly bc of the dynamic of the hand. There is a time and a place when we are flipping vs. villains range (if he had sets, 76, combos, Ax). This isn't it.

He probably has dumb Ax (a million turns kill this action anyway and we are OOP), 67 sometimes, 1 or 2 terribadly played combo draws, and Ax sometimes

Like, he basically never has sets. He definitely never has AK. That's all I need to know to go balls to the wall for value, esp. since we are OOP.

FWIW I think he has exactly a ******ed flush draw or a ******ed top pair. That is my Internet read atm.

inb4 10 page thread on whether flatting AQs is terrible or not

*

And yes sometimes we fold out worse hands we are destroying like A9 or w/e but 1) this is 1/2 so even that's a stretch and 2) we are OOP and gotta get dat value somehow

Like sometimes you have to go thin / face up with your value hands to the point where you are almost "overplaying" them bc there is really no superior option vs. villains range and the board texture is what it is

Ok, read the other responses, most of which lean call. (I had opted to fold as played).

There are probably 18 or so bad turn cards, so are we folding to a J/T/5/spade? If a blank turns we are calling which likely forces us to call river, correct? This was my dilemma, our absolute equity vs. his range likely warrants a flop call, but the positional disadvantage is burdensome.

OP - btw, you have are some of the best LLSNL posters in this thread.

to add to this, I think against most 1/2 droolers who's biggest leak is to call too much, we will stack worse Aces and FDs often enough, plus future +eV of having a 200+bb stack is legit at a deep table.

Agreed villian never has sets or AK based on his sizing. So, in that case, 3b the flop...which raises another sizing question....what sizing? Lets hear a flop 3b sizing thought process.

Btw, I think we 3b the flop to get fat value from worse. 89, FDs, worse Aces. There are action killers as well as many cards that give villian a better hand. If he has an Ace with a FD, he has excellent equity, so we don't mind if he mucks.

I didn't take the time to read everyone's reply, so disregard if already discussed, but doesn't the min-raise by the V scream the mortal nuts? Maybe I'm wrong, but you can put the V any hand like A7s, A6s, 66, 77, to call $7 PF in position, right?

The last few times I have seen the min raise happen like this, it just seems like the V is trying to play it like this because they have the nuts and they don't want to make a big raise and have the H fold.

As played, although it contradicts my previous thinking, I would call the raise and re-eval on the turn. I'm probably checking all turn cards obv.

Thank you for *all* of your replies so far, i read them all briefly, will read them over again a few times and chew on them when im done with my current session .

One thing to clarify as my image being nitty though: i didnt add this in the first post, but a few hands earlier I had kings, cbet when checked to on a flop, and the one guy left to act shoved short on me, giving me 4:1 to close action and call, when the flop was paired but with a straight and flush draw possible. Against an unknown where he could be doing the same thing with a draw or one pair at least 20% of the time, i called and he had trips. I mucked without moaning about getting cracked and didnt say anything when he asked if i had aces or kings, so i dont know if people think im really nitty at that point. I dont know, guess its up to you guys to tell me what you would think lol. Sucks gender adds another layer of variance.

Min-raise with a nutty hand is very bad on this board with Hero's betsizing. That doesn't make it impossible, but usually not great, but thinking, players with strong but vulnerable hands will raise much bigger "to get rid of the draws."

Very true, but if the board is not as draw-heavy, is my read correct....?

Sorry for the hijack, but this is something that I have always wondered, but haven't been able to post/ask about.

On dry boards, min-raise is usually polarized between near-nuts, and weak TP raising "to see where they're at," ime. /derail

Its not a derail bc you're talking about villians range. If V played a set of 2pr like this though, lol, super fish, imo

I would always 3b flop for value once hero has taken this line.

Pre can go either way, and with no further info on the PFR opening range when he makes it 7, I'd lean towards a 7 open in most 1/2 games, even from OMCs, as being a wider range than just premiums, and would 3b both for value, and to set up the opportunity to bluff on later streets when PFR calls to "hit his hand", and folds unimproved.

You should also be more willing to 3b a little lighter whenever there are any cold callers in the field. If it had just folded to you, flatting pre may be better.

If there was any doubt: i am not either advocating OP to fold AQ suited here. I was just eleborating on how a slightly different scenario (AQ offsuit and possible skilled opponent raise in position) would put flatcalling preflop as my definitive third option, behind 3 bet or fold.

Pre 3! To 25. There's too many hands he'd call with that you're ahead of. Most of the time he has you crushed like aa,ak, kk, he will be 4! All in and you can fold.

As played, pot flop or make it like 25.
As played, I'd Call his flop min raise and pot turn. There's alot of aces in his range that would probably look you up for how weak you're line is.


Oh and don't fold pre, I like to 3 bet for sure. Def not a 3bet or fold spot. 3!>call>fold

grunching...

Cliffs: I think 3-betting the flop is overplaying your hand.

I think the reasoning to just call PF makes sense. Playing a safer game while getting to know the table's tendencies is a good idea. 3betting also has the potential to fold out the parts of villains' ranges that you're ahead of, which is obviously bad. I'd much rather 3! this hand in late position than from the SB anyway.

Flop: In a 3-way hand, just bet pot if you're going to donk. Anything less loses value against draws that call anyway and hands like AJ, AT. AP, once you get min-raised by V, I think it's just a call.

V's shown a propensity for aggression in the short time you've been at the table. Depending on the turn card, you can likely allow him to hang himself with whatever length of rope you're willing to give. The min-raise classically represents a weakish top pair kind of hand. You can also likely rule out AK (at the very least highly discounting it) vs. this V because of his high 3-betting frequency coupled with the min raise.

Depending on the turn card and his action if you check to him, you can proceed with the hand with a high level of confidence that he's either barreling a weaker Ace, a draw, or even air. This player doesn't seem like the type to check back.

I'm extrapolating a lot based on V description, but "3bet a bunch of other times" and "tries to pull moves" is quite a lot of information relative to the short period of time you've been watching him play.

Prefer a flat PF against OMC raise.

On the flop I prefer a call instead of a 3bet. I think 3betting folds out the smaller Ax hands we want to keep in the hand. Obv we should 3bet if we think he continues with those hands thinking we're on a draw or is the type that just can't fold TP.

Great thread. Find myself in these spots OOP, prolly because I didnt take the initiative and 3bet somewhat big since we are OOP. He may fold out his Arag, but OOP im OK with taking down the flop pre. If we get 4bet pre we fold.

As played, donk bet for closer to pot and fold to his min raise. Playing the guessing game OOP is never fun.

+ 1 mirrion.

This is such an important point here.

PREFLOP:

I think this is an auto 3b unless we have a read on the PFR that he really is OMC and his open is like [QQ+, AK]. And to be honest, we probably can take AK out of OMC's PFR range.

I think the "3b or flat" is not interesting at all. Flatting is not bad, and if we are playing somewhere where we are known to the other players, then we certainly should be flatting here at least 33% of the time.

However, in this HH, Hero is a complete unknown. So I think we need to 3b this now.

What I do think is interesting are 2 things:

1) Preflop 3b sizing?

2) What to do when 4b? This probably isn't that interesting since we, turbo fold to any 4b, IMO.

As for 3b sizing... I think $35 will work -- but I'm willing to go larger (maybe much). I think $30 is the absolute minimum we can 3b here without it being counter productive.

I want a few things to happen:

1) I want PFR to fold his [PP, AK-] if he's capable. He may well be. But even if he's not, I want him to be afraid that we have a monster and he should tread lightly with the weaker parts of his range.

2) I want the other villain to flat and play a bloated pot with a range that is dominated. But I'm happy if he folds too.

3) I want my image to be of one who is very aggressive, especially out of the blinds. Since we're unknown here, I think we can work on our image a bit with a hand that is very strong relative to our Villain's ranges.

If both villains call then we will have a big pot with a very strong hand relative to V2's range, and probably about equal to V1's range. I'm perfectly fine with this.

Flop:

I hate donking here. This is the perfect spot for us to "check to the raiser". Its a nice pot, only 3 ways. Let's let PFR represent an A here. Let's also see what V2 does.

This hand will be a disaster if we donk here, and get raised by either Villain. If we get raised by either Villain, we have to turbo fold because either they have us dominated, or (V2) has a hand like 9s8s, which has way too much equity for us to want to continue here.

Basically, we're hoping that any raiser has AsXs, which would be the best case scenario. And even still, that hand has a tremendous amount of equity against us.

It is not a disaster for us to have this hand check through. Why?

1) We're going to station PFR if he Cbets.

2) We're going to fold if PFR Cbets, and V2 raises.

3) The only hand we're worried about is PFR with AK. If he let's this check through, then we're like 98% sure our A is good.

4) If PFR Cbets and V2 flats, then we're in great shape to see a turn.

What we really want to happen here is for PFR to C-bet $15-20, V2 to flat the C-bet and we flat the C-bet. Then we want the turn to be a non-spade 9-Q or 5-2, and then we can donk into the two villains for pot, which would be about 40% of our remaining stack. Easy setup for a river shove.

This is pretty wishful thinking

Again thanks for the discussion guys, here is what i think the cliffs are so far, plus some additional questions:

Preflop: more responses weighed towards 3bet than flat the $7. I think a raise of $30+ will probably get both to fold at the time, and less than $30 (so $25-28ish) will get at least one call.

Flop: more responses lean towards check, BUT if i were to donk, most definitely i should donk about $20+, and fold to a raise (?).
(Assume flop is the same here) If we check, and there is a check and a bet, or a pfr bet and a call, do we raise there as we likely have the best hand and we want value from worse and draws? If there is a pfr cbet and fold, do we station unless dangerous card comes up?

As played, if I donked and gets min raised, the initial responses seem to say just flat. Do i lead out or check call on non spade turn then? Then some people said 3bet is fine too because i can gii with my hand against Vs range if i understood correctly..

+1

Uhg... I don't like this at all.

What hands raise us OTF if we donk?

Combo draws have like 55%+ equity against us OTF if we let them get to the river.

AK has us crushed.

AsXs has at least 40%+ equity. This is the only hand we really want to continue against OTF if we get raised.

IMO, we should be looking to fold to any aggression OTF unless the bet sizing allows us to continue profitably.