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02-20-2013 , 07:09 AM
£1 / £2 live cash game, currently 8 handed. Hero has just sat down a couple of hands ago and hasn't played hand yet. £300 behind.

Villain 1: he is a regular in this card room but never faced him directly before, guy in early 40s seems to have decent stack when I see him. £500+ stack.
Villain 2: old guy, if I am honest seems a bit crazy from the way he dresses and acts, likely to be quite wealthy. £300ish stack.

Pre Flop
V1 limps from UTG+1, V2 limps from UTG+2. 1 more limper in LP, SB completes. Hero checks in BB with Ks7s.

Flop (£12)
AsQsJs.
Hero checks. V1 bets £10. V2 flats. All others fold. Hero flats.

Turn (£42)
Jd

Questions:
1. Is c/c on flop sensible? I feel if I lead unless someone has Ax, KT or flush they will fold. c/r might work to represent Ksx?
2. What is best way to proceed on turn?
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02-20-2013 , 07:56 AM
Bet pot yourself on the flop. You need that pot to grow exponentially.

There are few drawing hands that opponents will have. If they already have a small flopped flush they won´t fold on the flop so keep raising. If they have Ax most will still call a PSB on the flop. 2 pairs won´t fold either.

Sometimes you flop the nuts and everyone folds, but there´s no sense in slowplaying here. Either someone has something or they don´t. What range of hands do you think will suddenly call or spazz off huge monies on the turn just because you c/c´ed, and on which turns?

Ts is the only card that is likely to draw, and even then they may not pay you off, because despite being the second nut flush, for some reason it doesn´t feel as good as when it´s the K.
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02-20-2013 , 09:08 AM
Check/call flop lead turn looks -far- stronger on this board than lead flop/lead turn. Leading flop gives your opponent the chance to spaz out and raise either with a value hand or as a bluff; if you check/call lead, now he's just going to call down with his value hands or fold.

You absolutely you must bet the turn now, you can't go for a check/raise and risk it checking through, because I think this checks through a ton.

A better line might have been leading flop then check-raising turn if your read on the flop was villain had a hand he'd call a c/r with.

In any event, you're probably not going to get the guy's stack in the middle unless he has you beat. As Czech Rays said, it's not enough to flop big, you have to hope the other guy flopped second big....and yeah, the 10-high flush isn't spazzing out here unless he specifically puts Hero on the 9-high flush....
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02-20-2013 , 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Czech Rays
Bet pot yourself on the flop. You need that pot to grow exponentially.
Yea this. I see too many people try to deceive when they flop a monster. But our #1 goal isn't to deceive, it's to get as much money in the pot as possible.

Also, it's pretty darn deceiving to flop mortal nuts from the BB, and lead into it with a pot sized bet. No one will put you on the nuts. My line would be lead, lead, lead, bc that line 1) looks FOS to most fish and 2) gets the most money in

Also, bet bigger, as stated pot sized. A lot of times strong hands bet small to not "scare everyone off". But what would you rather have in a 9 way flop example...you bet $1 and get 9 callers, or you bet $9 and get one caller?
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02-20-2013 , 11:21 AM
grunch: c/c

out of position with a bunch of limpers i would probably lead out flop. i hate limped pots but in the bb what are you gonna do... anyway, you might get folds all around and it will seem like a waste but you gotta pot build. better to win one medium/big pot once in a while than a bunch of tiny pots. you just need someone to have caught "something". rarely are people going to fight for tiny pots with nothing.

now that you've started your story, i'd probably continue it. this will be read dependent. do you think villain would continue to bet? if so, check call and then make same decision on river... if you think villain would lead out again go for check raise, otherwise lead out yourself.

if you think villain may slow down because of your call on flop, then lead out on turn and hope he goes into call-down mode. against a non-nitty player i probably continue the "weak" storyline and check/call on turn.
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02-20-2013 , 12:39 PM
I would just pot/pot/shove. There's a bunch of pair, pair + draw, two pair, straight, straight draw, flush draw, etc. type hands here, let's just keep betting into the field and hopefully build a pot large enough that a shove on the river isn't too much of an overbet.

I hate any plan that possibly allows a street to check thru (where now we'll never be on our way to playing for stacks), especially since there are quite a lot of scare cards that will totally shut down action.

As played (i.e. checking the flop, which I hate), just check/raise now to start building a pot against two interested opponents and hope one or both stick around.

Things get a little more interesting on the turn with the board pairing and stacks being such that we shouldn't be stacking off if our hand is no good. I probably donk and might seriously consider folding if raised.

GbetbetbettingG
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02-20-2013 , 04:20 PM
Grunch

No, c/c flop is not sensible. How do you expect to get stacks on by check calling the flop? You got the nuts, bet that ****. I'm leading out into the field like at least 95% of the time here, probably for $15, if not, then $10. Checking with the intention of raising is better then check calling, although c/r is bad since it will cause many hands that don't have any immediate outs against you to fold (i.e. like A7o, QTo, many single spade hands etc.)

Well... now that you have kinda screwed up this hand, playing the turn is kinda difficult. I really really really don't want this turn to check through. Whether or not you should lead depends on whether your opponents will bet Ax when checked to, or possible semi-bluff with spade or spade/pair. Either way, they are almost certainly folding those types of hands to a c/r OTT. I would lead out for $30 OTT, although I would never be in this spot. I think you still get called by Ax, and possibly even raised by Jx.

The VAST majority of the time I would be taking a B/B/B line here with the intention of never folding.
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