V1: Black guy in his 60's- rec fish on the spewy side, overvalues RIO type hands, and is a non believer. Probably views hero as a typical young bluffer. One recent hand the previous orbit, $300 eff stacks- hero opens TT in MP to $15 over 3 limpers and V is the only caller directly to my left. Head's up to a 973r flop and we lead out $25 to which he snap calls. Turn is Qc and hero c/c a $40 bet. River pairs the 3 and we check again. Old man tosses $75 and hero calls. V tables 89 and we scoop.

V2: We have no hand history against this young obese white male with a grizzly beard. He has been at the table for a couple of orbits but has not been extremely active. He bought in short ($100) and lost half of it, but then won a promotion that gave him $300 which he put into play, so he's sitting at around $350 to start this hand. V1 has about $250 and hero covers both.

2 limps to us on the BTN and we limp with Tc9c. V1 makes it $12 from the SB, V2 flats from UTG and we call. 3 way to a flop:

T22 ($40)

V1 leads $23, V2 calls and so do we. Turn:

6 ($109)

V1 leads $20 and V2 and myself call again. River:

8 ($169)

V1 checks (and gives up...his hand is face up as two big overs or 55, 77). V2 quickly tosses out 4 green chips ($100).

What's our play?

You beat nothing he could reasonably be value betting and I've seen overpairs take v1s line. I'm folding this. I'm also raising pre on the button but that's just how I roll.

I am folding here. I am also raising here pre on the button you have a hand that flops great on the button make it around 14.

^ This. Fold it pretty fast even if the guy was known to be maniac clown circus entertainer.

Also go for the raise pre more often than a flat.

I agree that a raise is fine here, but so is a call. I'm a little surprised that all responses have been so quick to fold. Is anyone even attempting to put V on an actual range? Why are we so quick to assume we're beat?

Do people think V2 has pocket 8s?
Missed flush draw and bluffing?

Why is this a fold?

Fold flop. You play T9s to hit straights and flushes, not TP.

So therefore we fold to a modest cbet? Doesn't seem totally warranted.

I think villain has a lot of better 10s and some JJ here that beat us, and maybe a combo of A2s. Otherwise could be 88-99/busted FD looking to take down a pot no one seems very enthusiastic about. With no reads I fold.

^ If you were HU and V doesn't double barrel air then you can float. But you don't need a pair to do that and stab and take it ott.

But we're MW and can't beat any made hand that's leading two streets into multiple opponents.

I'd rather 3-bet pf and then we only need the T otf and V will be more likely to float us because he'll put us on a lot of combos of unpaired overs and some fd's.

It's a serious RIO scenario when you get attached to pairs with these types of hands.

Let's go back to the beginning and examine the action:
V2 limps UTG and then flats a pre-flop raise.
What hands typically do this?... any pocket pair, any big Ace... right?

On the flop, V2 is sandwiched between hero and V1, doesn't do anything to scare anyone out. So AX is possible. As is any pocket pair. 22 and TT are definite contenders. We can assume most overpairs would bet here to chase out flush draws... but that doesn't happen. So maybe we can rule out AA, KK, QQ and JJ?

On the 6 turn, V1 bets like he's got AQ or AK. So V2 knows he's not a threat, yet he just smooth calls the 20 bet. Why? To induce hero to call.
Now 66 is also a possibility.

On the river, V1 gives up. But V2 is willingly putting in more money. Against 2 players! When's the last time you saw someone "bluff" 2 players off their hands on the river? Plus, he's making it like 1/2 pot... so he's actually begging for a call.

Yes, 88 is in his range. As is 66, 22 and TT. We might also put AT and JJ in there too (although poorly played). And if he's as adventurous as V1, he could easily have 23 and 24 in his range (a lot of guys will call one off just to see if they can hit the flop).

Even if he played JT, T8 or QT, our hero is toast.

A 100 bet into a 169 pot is rarely a bluff. It's what known as value-town.

T9 is a fold.

Since there is a perception of a bluff with quick action and 4 greens, I think a live read is critical. His call on a weak turn bet seems strange for JJ+, even AT. His range from UTG is probably overs and pps - been quiet.

Pre - fine, although I'd raise more than call.
Flop - not many good turn cards, but think a call is ok.
Turn - I might raise if we believe draws will call. We fold out 99- but taking down a $150pot with TP/NK is ok. If called, river is probably checked to us.

Agree with Samos turn raise. Its a dual purpose raise. A bluff vs pairs which hopefully fold, or a value raise/initiative buyer vs draws. Especially on that weak ass turn bet.

Results:

Thanks everyone I appreciate the feedback. Some of you pointed out some important factors that I did not even consider. But its clear that a few of you need to think about hand ranges and bet sizing a little deeper and shake that monster under the bed syndrome.

We're no longer worried about V1 after the turn...now its about V2. His river bet is so polarized. He is never betting 2 pair here for value so say goodbye to AT, KT QT JT. If he has any Ten he'll go into check call mode.

The bottom of his betting range on this river is trip 2's...and if he's got a weak kicker he might even c/c. No, its clear that V2 either has a full house or nothing.

His line seemed too fishy and his body language was awkward. From the way he threw his chips out there to the way he kept trying to stare me down as I tanked seemed like he was trying to feign strength. A combination of those things made this a fairly easy call. When I put my chips in V says " good call your ten is good" to which I reply, "you missed your spades? " he obliged by showing me two little spades for the missed draw.

How are you making such specific soul read statements such as "he is never betting AT for value" when your OP says you have no history, he bought in short, and is not an active player? You seem like you are retroactively changing your initial read to justify monkey calling with TPNK. Also, Just because air is a decent part of V1s range doesnt mean hes done on the river. I've seen AA take this line on a paired flop many times.

This is not anything near a soul read and I am never "monkey calling". If you saw someone take a similar line with AA then I can practically guarantee that was the exception not the rule in LLSNL. Villains at this level will simply never play big pairs like that most of the time.

I don't need to have an extensive amount of history with any particular opponent to pick up on whether or not they can value bet thinly on the river. This guy is not capable of that, he is simply too passive. Now take a look at each street of betting. Why would V suddenly lead 2/3 of the pot on the river into two opponents? You are adding a dimension that does not exist.

He isn't suddenly leading. The first two streets he was lead into and now he's been checked to. Unless ive actually seen them play a hand poorly i have almost no reads on someone after 2 orbits other than a slight idea as to their preflop range. So passive players can bluff into 2 players on a blank river but can't value bet tptk in the same spot? I also would have expected a player capable of bluffing the river here to raise on the flop or turn. Based on your original V description this river should be a fold. If your read is stronger than what you provided us in the op that's fine, just understand that the responses you get will reflect that.

Suited connectors that make one pair are some of the toughest hands to play postflop because all you ever have is a bluff catcher. Tread carefully.

Good call. I think your tables reads were obviously pretty critical. And you're right that I at least didn't give V2 enough busted spade draws in his range here, even though the action is consistent with a busted spade draw, if I haven't seen a V play much, let alone caught bluffing, I would still say it is a fold against most unknown players, in general they are not making that bluff very often.

Looking back over it, I guess the call on the tiny turn bet is the one point that really weights his range more toward draws (or monsters), and so might give us enough reason for a call. SO the line does look really weird for a top pair or over pair hand, but not so weird that it doesn't happen, and perhaps more often than the large busted draw river bluff from an inactive player.

Because he flatted 2 streets with someone to act behind. He has some kind of value hand here imo. He is going to blast off with a missed flush draw so we have to give him credit for a hand. if anything your hand looks like a busted draw so he can somewhat safely bet a T with a good kicker.

Saying V2 has a full house or nothing is wrong. He can has JJ easily and sometimes QQ and I think he can bet better JT+

You never mentioned anything about his body language so you shouldnt use that as a reason to say everyone is wrong and you are right.

Also you can very confidently put AT KT QT JT in Vs river betting range imo. When you just call 2 streets your hand doesnt look strong, your hand is fairly face up imo, flush draw or mediocre top pair.

I also think V2 can have a hand here, I dont think he is barreling air into 2 opponents on flop and turn. He can have JT QT KT AT AA KK QQ JJ and easily check/river.

"never play big pairs like that most of the time"..... think about that.

Thank you for your lesson, professor Tino.

I guess where you play, no one would ever value bet a T on the river knowing that V1 is weak and Hero has never shown any strength. And nobody ever plays a big pocket pair like a donk.

The funny thing is that where I play, players that are willing to bet $100 on a bluff are also willing to do so with top pair as well as a FH. So the idea that this is "an easy call" still eludes me.

I like how you posted the hand without telling anyone about V2's body language and feigning strength. Well played, sir.

I guess that's why you're the smartest guy on the forum.

By suddenly leading, he is taking the initiative in the hand where as each previous street he did not. And the short answer to your question, "passive players can bluff into 2 people but can't value bet tptk in the same spot"...CORRECT. Just because he's passive doesn't mean he's not capable of bluffing a missed draw into opponents that have not shown much strength. The flip side to that is that BECAUSE he's been passive thus far, it does not make sense that he would lead with a top pair type hand in this spot. He would much rather check/ call with a medium strength hand, which is why his range is polarized as either a monster or nothing.

Another thing to consider is that if V has a bare 2 he is most likely either raising flop or turn bet as there's two spades on the board and we know that most Villains do not like to "get sucked out on by the flush..."...even when it's not probably that anyone else in the hand even has a FD.

So with this information combined with his body language (my apologies for not mentioning that in my OP), I think we can see that this is a profitable call. And I'm not being results orientated...even if V shows me a boat, I'm ok with this call. I was fully aware that I was bluff catching in this spot.

Once again, sorry for leaving out the body language info in my OP. I still have a hard time ever thinking that V would play JJ or QQ like this. If he's got an over pair I think he treats it similar to flopped trips, and either raises flop or turn. If met with resistance, he takes a check call line with over pairs.

And no, we can NOT "confidently" put V on top pair hands. AT, maybe but still it's a little too thin. We should never assume that LLSNL villains can value bet thinly on the river until they show they can. Maybe my call is a bit spewy, but either way I think I gain something significant. If V shows me any top pair then I can see he's not typical and adjust my play accordingly. Expensive lesson, yes, but that's the price of getting better in poker...it's usually worth it if you walk away having had learned something and not make the same mistake again in the future.

What's weaker than someone being passive-aggressive on the poker table? Someone who's passive-aggressive in an online poker forum.

Take your skirt off and just say what you gotta say. You don't like my line? Fine. You disagree with my thought process? Ok. But making snide comments like a middle school girl that just started her period is lame.

Didn't mean to contradict myself, I had too many thoughts at once and typed too fast without proofreading. I meant to say that most villains will not play big pairs like that most of the time.

i agree that V2's river bet can often be a bluff, but i don't think he's necessarily as polarized as you think. if he's a decent-to-good player, he would definitely bet AT or KT to get value from Hero or V1.

on a side note, i don't think V2 ever has an overpair given preflop action...

Why did you post this hand on the forum?
What kind of advice were you looking for since you already had all the answers? Did you think you should have raised the river?
What was the point of posting this hand on 2+2?