This hand got me thinking about my game recently... For personal reasons I can only play for a few hours every couple of weeks... I used to play much more in the past... And quiet honestly in the past I wouldn't even post this hand.. But I just wanna start a discussion of recreational player vs a grinder game.

Game setup:
1/2 NL in local casino, table went from being crazy to really slow after the aggressive fish with 1k stack cashed out. Now it's just passive...
Villain sat down 2 rounds ago and was involved in 2 hands, he's an older gentleman who seems tightish but keeps talking about how he bluffs from time to time..
His first hand at the table, he posted in EP, checked and back raised... Got it in preflop with AA vs AA...
Second hand was with me, I raised my BTN with 84s, he flatted from BB ..cbet a KK3 flop and took it down, my cards were exposed and he made a comment about my hand, I told him it was my lucky hand.
The hand:
3 limpers to hero
Hero (250$) raises to 15$ with AA
Villain (140$) calls from BB
Two limpers call
Flop (60$) 567r
Villain donks 35$, all folds
Hero?

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Just from the fact that he back raised with aces I want to discount a made straight here and most two pairs. This might be a bit of a stretch, though.

Im going to think pair plus draw type of hand at best. I'm probably going to raise/gii if Im sure hes going to go with his one pair type hands.

Just calling is probably best as he's going to play his hand face up if an overcard hits. Im curious as to other's responses too.

A call or a raise is going to narrow your range to an OP. He's not going to put in a lot of money on bluff if you raise, so I'd call and keep the pot relatively low. The turn play will depend on the card and how many others are still in the hand.

Well they all folded now... It's HU if I call

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I agree that call or raise from hero represents OP even with short history/84s button raise.

Villain's talk in my experience often comes from players who rarely bluff. He is trying to set up spots where he can overbet with made hands. His larger bet sizings may be learned because he dreads being put to the test postflop.

Why donk this flop?

1) V does not want the flop to check through. His range here includes 44-QQ and pair + straight draws.

2) V has a made hand and wants to trap players between to get max value.

Either way it seems call > raise or fold.

Given the pot is $60 and there are around $120 left in stacks, I think you're almost never folding. If you had a much better read on villain, that might be different. But that's really unlikely.

Villain probably doesn't have total air. His range on the flop is probably something like:

Over pair / over pair+draw: 99, 88

Under pair+draw: 44, 33

Pair+draw: 87, 86, 85, 53, 97, 96s, 95s

Pair: A7, A6, A5, etc.

Draw:A8, A4, maybe T9

Two pair: 76, 65, 75

Straight: 98, 43

Set: 77,66,55

The above isn't comprehensive. Just examples. Generally though it's like a pair, pair+draw, draw, set and straight. Sets, straights and two pair are 9 + 32 + 27 = 68 combos, so not super unlikely, but there are many more combos in the rest of his range that we beat.

We're probably committing in this situation. Let's assume that's the case (again, if villain was a rock-type nit, you could fold flop).

Since we're committing, we need to ask how we want the chips to go in.

The problem with calling is that the turn kills our action against a lot of his range that gives us value now. A turn A, K, Q, J, T can spook villain off weaker pair hands. He might never fold his draws no matter what we do. We'll lose to his monsters no matter what, as well.

Given that dynamic, shove the flop. You will get called by enough worse to get value. Ranges, stack sizes, and board texture suggest it's the most profitable play here. If we were much deeper, I'd call. If villain was a rock, I'd fold. So very situation dependent.

The great thing about being IP is we can call and play turns really well. I'd do just that.

I'm not folding once he thinks I'm a bluffer. Raise and commit.

Raise to $115 and call a shove or shove any turn if called.

Not really. Villain started the hand with $140.

That's the most important variable in the hand. Our raise on the flop is always all in.

By raising to 115 we get to see Vs hand when he goes all in. I like making other people show first when I can.

With an SPR of 2 we're never folding this flop.

I'm probably min raising here.

We're not well ahead of his straight draws so no need to get it all in here. I'd rather get it all in on the turn and the min raise allows for that.

The only reason im min raising is because it sets up stacks better for a turn shove and if he has 99-QQ, or A7 or something it keeps him from folding to a bigger flop raise.

Yep. Raise flop to 80. Shove every turn no matter what.

If we were deeper, calling is much better.

What other people are saying- you're good to commit against all but the nittiest players, think of the best way to get the money in either flop or the turn

The 84s hand may help your image to be "not a total nut peddler" but people aren't stupid: they know it was a button raise in a blind-steal situation. You have 3 limpers and made it $15. How much did you raise in the 84s hand?

For those saying raise the flop less than all-in:

You realize we started the hand with 140 effective right?

If you raise to 80 and get a call, the turn pot will be 220 and you'll have 45 left in effective stacks. That doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

By the way OP, this was a pretty funny answer, I like it:

"I told him it was my lucky hand."

Big Lol @ shoving on flop with just a pair and made straight texture on board

Lol @ flatting or folding. Just let him get away from 99/TT type hands on the turn when an over card hits. They are never folding after donking 1/3 of their stack so just get it in.

That's the point. We're not folding here ever due to we're ahead of most of range and with only 70bbs, and shoving might make him fold, where as a raise to 80 and then shove turn makes it much easier to get stacks in, even if a scare card comes due to pot odds.

If V calls flop raise, he is never folding, EVER, no matter what comes on turn. Why risk shoving and scaring him away?

This logic is correct only if you are for sure ahead of him on the flop, if he has an overpair like TT.

It is not correct if he is already ahead of you on flop. And of course, if AA is behind here then it is waaay behind.

Using the fact that most of the time most of the hands in villain's range isn't ahead of us here to justify vomiting all your chips on the flop with just 1 pair is silly to me. That is, unless of course, you think villain donk bets on a flop like that every single time, regardless of his holding.

Also, a "donk bet" on a textured flop isn't really a donk bet. Its def not the same as a weak lead on an untextured flop for obvious reasons

U guys don't think the fact that this is a 4 way flop makes the bottom of his range something like 87?

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Isn't AA a slight slight dog or probably exact coin toss vs 87 or any other pair+draw hands here?

Not getting it in on a multiway flop with AA with an SPR of 2 would be ridiculous.

Lol alright you just keep on shoving your one pair hands in multiway pots with made textures on the flop and chalking up those snap call beats to variance

Yeah but if this is the bottom of his range then we r not in good shape

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