Good point. I noticed some of the folks in my regular game are making that adjustment against me. I will need to be a little less predictable going forward.

Dude, I am talking about opening up the betting again to villain and the possibility of him 3-betting huge and forcing hero off the hand.

So let's say you raise to $250 and villain shoves for $1000. Are you going to stack off here on the flop?

~50% is thin for me to be playing for 5x BI, I guess it isn't for you.

Peel flop. Check turn brick. As is b/c turn.

Yes, I am stacking off because at that point I will have odds against the range of hands he shoves with. However you are only looking at one scenario where he shoves for $1000. What about all the other scenarios where he folds? Or he calls, checks the turn and we bet and take the pot from him? Or he calls, calls the turn, we triple barrel and he folds? Or we hit and he still calls us down? Not to mention how it helps us get paid off in future hands where we have already made monsters. If you look at all these factors, it's much more than 50% value.

Might as well not even play the hand if your not going to raise that flop. I dont think any competant player would be reraising his whole stack here with TPTK

If we just peel flop and the turn bricks, we're faced with another bet... Better to make the raise now(for the same total amount we'd have to pay if the turn bricks), so that we still have the option to bluff at the pot on later streets and because our equity is very high.

If I think he would put his whole stack in with AK here, then absolutely yes, I'm stacking off on this flop. We are ahead of AK.

This is the best flop possible for our hand without flopping the nut straight. We are very likely to have over 50% equity on the flop, which means we should never fold.

I think there is some merit to calling, though. Mainly, if we expect villain to bomb the turn if we make a straight (but not a flush) and then stack off, we have great implied odds with our hand (plus we can still try to get value if we make the flush). Furthermore, our hand is probably good enough to call again on the turn even if we brick, depending on the odds we're offered.

That said, most of the time I would be shoveling money into the pot on this flop, especially against a bet that says "I'm afraid of draws". (Seeing that bet would make me give Axdd a lot less weight in his range.)

Uhh...this is 1/2.

What's the point of risking stack when you're IP with crazy draw? As a "serious" player, I'll sit here and take easy money all day over fancy stack moves.

This hand is really matter of line choices, but like I said, if you enjoy the variance, then go right ahead...

Incorrect imo. By raising otf what have we accomplished? Assuming Villain's range is AK, QQ+ (and possibly JJ, AQ), we get Villain to fold his 2nd pairs (KK -) while we are actually the favorite in this hand.

When turn bricks after our peel and Villain continues, we are getting roughly 2:1 pot odds to peel again (not to mention implied odds involved). When we brick otr and Villain checks, we check behind and have limited our variance. Obviously we're getting it in when we connect otr.

When Villain checks brick turn, we check behind to allow Villain to bluff w/ KK- otr. When he bets, we jam when we hit - and if our reads tell us so, we can even jam over his river vb w/ air.

We bet when we connect ott.

Where's flossing? Flossy you only lurk HU?

Like you said.. we are (slight)favorites in those hands, hence we want to put more money in while we are ahead correct? Not just that, but him folding is an even more favorable result as well, as he is forfeiting his %50~ equity in the pot. So if both our hands are face up, we should both be getting it in due to pot odds and we would only win 50% of the time, instead of 100% of the time when he folds. The beauty of a hand like this is that you have so much fold equity versus many hands that you're even with, and even have solid equity versus hands that will get it in with you, which is why you should always be playing them as aggressively as possible. Like I've said earlier, this will also help you get paid off when you have sets and made straights/flushes.

Why does there have to be a choice between easy money and fancy stack moves(that are +ev)? I've seen this talk a few times around here. This is not a tournament...If we get it in on a 55/45 and lose, we just reload and we can still get it in on 60/40s and 80/20s later. The only reason you should play that way is if you're not properly rolled and your BR cannot handle variance. Think of every play as +ev or not...If playing a hand one way will make you on average $5 per hand over a million hands, then still play it that way. You can still play a later hand that makes you $100 per hand. This is the difference between winning $20 and $25 an hour over the long run.

Edit-I will say that there is some valid reasoning for this, though very specific: If there are many fish who are deep stacked at the table and you are also deepstacked, and if you bust the table max to reload is much smaller, then it might be alright to pass up a 55/45. But even if that were the case, I would still try to get it on this flop as your pot equity+fold equity is much greater than 55 against most players I believe.

I disagree w/ your reasoning. Do the math on all the probable outcomes of peeling vs raising and see which is more +EV. Prove your work if your answer is raising.

Also, I wouldn't raise a set otf. Even if I would, I wouldn't be concerned about balancing with this hand as we're hitting sets much more frequently than this draw, I believe. Anyone have stats?

5x BI dude...if this was $200, I'll shove blind here.

Seriously, are you guys really this new to the game?

We are deep here. Akin to playing 2/5 w/ same roll.

$2500 for 2/5, and $4500 for 5/10 with $1500 max BI.

He's suggesting that if we lose $2500, we should just re-buy at $500 and pick easier spot to build our stack back up.

Poke, cheel baby.

Doing my morning coffee drinking routine, caffeine is kicking in...can't help it.

I'm not really using math.. I'm using logic... We both agree that against any pair we're about 50/50 right?(maybe slight favorites) That means that we each have 50% in pot equity. However, getting him to fold means that he is giving up his 50% to us, giving us 100% when we really only "had" 50, do you see?

Lol you in HI? SuPeR jellyyyyyyyyyyy

No, morning is relative to when I wake up, not Earth's rotation =).

Easier spot/Same spot, doesn't matter. Make +ev decisions.

Flatting reduces our losses and ^'s our profit.

Math is pure logic.

Exactly.

Keep in mind [................] EV > [...] EV

nh