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12-03-2011 , 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canoodles
This is so not true! It's just that we have to focus on one aspect to capitalize our edge (value betting) rather than the other (bluffing). As soon as you can value-bet thin, you can run people over because they don't fold their weak hands. It's not like we're trying to get people to fold the nuts, so why do we need to the nuts to bet for value?

Oh and FWIW, I still can't understand what people are talking about when they say they cannot bluff at live low stakes...
The thing is THEY (the person stating this) can't because they dont hae the ability to do so/ can't handread well. You can, thats the difference and why you dont understand.
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12-03-2011 , 04:41 AM
Well, I partially agree (yay toot my own horn), but also, I wonder if by "bluffing" they are talking more about taking very straight-forward "bet bet barrel" lines, or even just having their c-bets called really wide and giving up? I mean, I would agree that villains are never folding most flops with any piece to a c-bet, but I think the absolute biggest discrepancy is villain's call flop % to their call turn %, and an even bigger one to their call flop/turn% to their call river %. The river is always the hardest street to call because there is no more cards that can come.

I think the whole point of barreling isn't solely to protect your investment on the previous street (I.E. I raised preflop, now I have to c-bet to win the pot, now I have to bet the turn to win the pot+my cbet, now I have to shove the river to win the pot+cbet+barrel) but also literally for the value of getting called on the current street knowing that they will fold a later one. I think people get this confused. Getting called OTT can often be a good thing because you know they are folding the river a big % of the time so your turn bet is almost like a value bet. Though so often I see guys bet flop and turn and give up OTR because they have ace-high and hope to god it wins and it never does and always loses to bottom pair or some **** and they go ballistic "how can you call me down with that ****!?", and they also never value bet the ace when they actually hit it OTR either.
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12-03-2011 , 04:43 AM
The 1/2 = Bingo mentality is not incredibly far from the "online is rigged" mentality. It shows an incredible lack of understanding about the game, and an inability to adapt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canoodles
Well, I partially agree (yay toot my own horn), but also, I wonder if by "bluffing" they are talking more about taking very straight-forward "bet bet barrel" lines, or even just having their c-bets called really wide and giving up? I mean, I would agree that villains are never folding most flops with any piece to a c-bet, but I think the absolute biggest discrepancy is villain's call flop % to their call turn %, and an even bigger one to their call flop/turn% to their call river %. The river is always the hardest street to call because there is no more cards that can come.
this. I can't count how many times ive gone for three streets of value against a villain in 1/2 and them just go "aw shucks I missed" and fold on the river. To people who say bluffing isn't possible at 1/2 if at any point a villain folds to a value bet, than they are equally capable of folding to a bluff.

Last edited by architect_dad; 12-03-2011 at 04:51 AM.
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12-03-2011 , 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Muck McFold
I play in these types of games and I can honestly
say I dont bluff at all and like you play only the
good starting hands. I play tight in EP to MP.
Limp a lot more CO and BTN after limpers.

I cant see how I can improve my game so that when I do move
up I can beat better players. I think I am easy to read I play
straight forward when I get a nutty hand I bet bet bet, if I get
a good run of cards I can win big but when I dont........I can't
beqt anyone.

I just seem to fold too much or give up on hands, because
its easy to come up with reasons to fold, its a MW pot and I
have a weak hand or ace high or a bad draw, or a LP just bet pot
or the turn card completes a draw and its a MW pot etc.
than fold! stop trying to "mix it up" 1/2 is a game of relentlessly betting your value hands and inducing bluffs. You do NOT have to balance significantly because the other players are so oblivious to everything that they are often not assigning you a range. I've been at a table where an old nitty reg (and very bad player) was literally warning the whale in the hand with me that I am a nit and have the goods. he was ignored
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12-03-2011 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canoodles
but I think the absolute biggest discrepancy is villain's call flop % to their call turn %, and an even bigger one to their call flop/turn% to their call river %. The river is always the hardest street to call because there is no more cards that can come.
This is true. If you cannot see and exploit this is is because your game is not good enough. Simplezzzzz.
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12-07-2011 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canoodles
Oh and FWIW, I still can't understand what people are talking about when they say they cannot bluff at live low stakes...
You dont understand because you think its HUs by the river. You dont understand because you think you can ISO a single player. Instead picture 3 or 6 way flop/turn action.......with less than a PSB for river shove.
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12-08-2011 , 03:18 AM
It's all about picking your spots. My game is very TAG, but I don't bluff the unbluffable. I play a very limited amount of hands, and when I run hot, I have to go to the pit to color up.

You should never complain that you can't bluff. If you can't bluff them, then just wait for your spots to value bet.

Bluffing can be done at 1/2, you just have to do it rarely and don't try to bluff calling stations.
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12-08-2011 , 03:39 AM
you can bluff in low stakes live, but you aren't bluffing to ever get someone off of top pair especially in a capped game. you are bluffing in spots where you know villain has nothing or is very weak. multi-way pots are actually decent bluff opportunities because everyone plays so predictably, as they have to in a lot of spots. overcards, namely and ace or king are good bluff cards on the turn or river. although it can't be used that often, 3-betting is actually a strong tool live because live players are equivalent to the fish online back in the day that don't know how to react to them - but make sure your mark is indeed opening light; you might be able to get bet sizing tells based on some opponents opening size.
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12-08-2011 , 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkorbet50
you can bluff in low stakes live, but you aren't bluffing to ever get someone off of top pair especially in a capped game. you are bluffing in spots where you know villain has nothing or is very weak. multi-way pots are actually decent bluff opportunities because everyone plays so predictably, as they have to in a lot of spots. overcards, namely and ace or king are good bluff cards on the turn or river. although it can't be used that often, 3-betting is actually a strong tool live because live players are equivalent to the fish online back in the day that don't know how to react to them - but make sure your mark is indeed opening light; you might be able to get bet sizing tells based on some opponents opening size.
I agree about 3 betting. You have to be careful who you 3-bet (i.e. nits in early position or loose players who protect initial raise), but they often times don't think you have air and will give you a lot of respect even if they call. Then you just have to put an opponent on a range and use board texture to bluff on flop - if you should even bluff.
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