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1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets 1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets

01-20-2012 , 01:56 AM
Questions
1: Is this a situation where playing KK passive post flop is a good decision? (Given the villains range - semi unknown)
2: How should Hero respond to the donk bets? (fighting MUBS)

Preflop:
Villain has been at the table for just over a hour. Tends to limp often and fold to a raise. Hero has been raising with Ax / pairs / broadway and Villain has been folding limps. Villain has raised three times (once not shown), showing QQ and AQo. With QQ and AQ villain had the over pair and TP and bet each hand on two streets. Cant remember what happened on the river in each hand.

This is during Aces cracked. All the regulars at the table will limp and call with AA to try to get them cracked to get $100. Villain is not a reg, not sure if he will limp AA. Villain knows its AA cracked.

$200 max buyin
Hero: Has been tight. Has not shown any bluffs since villain has been at the table. Hero has raised relentlessly over limpers but has only showed down strong hands (AK, KK and QQ). Hero has won several small pots recently.

Stacks:
Villain: $200
Hero: covers ($400)

Hero UTG: KK raises to $10. 8 folds.
Villain BB: calls.
Pot: $21

standard raise for the table. The cold call was surprising. Initial range for villain: medium / large pairs, AK, AQ, connectors, broadway cards?

Flop
337

Villain: Bets $20
Hero: Calls $20
Pot: $61

Flop is dry. Instinct was to put villain on a pair, 7x, 55-KK. Thought about raising, but that seemed really strong. Thoughts?

Turn: 8
Villain: Bets $20
Hero: Calls $20
Pot $101
Picked up K flush draw. some extra insurance is nice. Board really doesnt change. The bet seemed weak and the villain seemed confident, building on the read of overpair. Plan to bet on river with any or blank (not 10-Q).

River: 2
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets $40.

Standard? Anyone raise KK on the flop? Seemed to be a good scenario (abit rare one) to slowplay Kings.

Last edited by Bruno876; 01-20-2012 at 02:19 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 03:26 AM
You're putting villain on top pair+, but not trips, and you have the second best overpair. People don't fold top pair+ much, pop it.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 03:36 AM
I don't hate flatting the flop donk bet, but I'm definitely raising the turn bet.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 03:41 AM
Why wait to rep a hand better than what we have on the turn?
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno876
...
Hero UTG: KK raises to $10. 8 folds.
...
find a new table
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 10:27 AM
I kept thinking I only have a pair of Kings, thus small hand small pot. This is why I didnt raise (weak thinking? is this wrong?)

So on the turn I should try and play for stacks? Or should I raise the turn and fold to a reraise?

Last edited by Bruno876; 01-20-2012 at 10:28 AM. Reason: clarity
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno876
I kept thinking I only have a pair of Kings, thus small hand small pot. This is why I didnt raise (weak thinking? is this wrong?)

So on the turn I should try and play for stacks? Or should I raise the turn and fold to a reraise?
If you are calling because you think villain will fold if you raise on the flop, then I prefer to call for that reason. You keep his range wider and will be able to extract more value. If you think, as Ikestoys suggested, that villains typically don't fold top pair/overpairs, then I think raising gets more value. However, I think the reason you gave for just calling the flop is kind of weak thinking. You do have value.

I think I prefer a flop raise instead of calling, mainly because of the presence of the flush draw and I agree that top pairs/overpairs do have tough times folding. And if I am faced with a raise I am prepared to stack off.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno876
I kept thinking I only have a pair of Kings, thus small hand small pot. This is why I didnt raise (weak thinking? is this wrong?)

So on the turn I should try and play for stacks? Or should I raise the turn and fold to a reraise?
Raise/folding the turn is horrible. You can't put 1/2 your effective stack into the pot and then fold an overpair.

If you're raising OTT here it has to be with the intention of playing for stacks. Normally I'd never do this here b/c of the way you turned your hand face up PF - a nit who hasn't showed down a bluff, raising 5x from UTG, when an Aces Cracked payout is on? What would you put you on? So who's donking into you twice except someone who outflopped you?

But the K changes things. Now you (probably) have outs even if a raise gets called (I'm still leery of the AA but that's MUBS). That turns your hand into something I'm willing to go to war with.

My question is, why not shove the turn? Yes, most of the time you get called you're behind, but in nearly all those cases you have a redraw to the 2nd nut flush. The rest of the time you pick up an $80 pot. IMO you're ahead much more often than you're behind here but not so strong that you wouldn't mind taking it down OTT.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 11:33 AM
You played it perfectly. Expect to see 88-QQ alot more often than trips or flush, especially by the river check. Nice value bet, don't kick yourself if this nit checked river with nut flush worrying you had a boat.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 12:17 PM
Raising the flop and calling both have pros and cons. I probably play it te same way but bet more on the river.

If villain can't fold 99 then raise the flop and play for stacks. If villain is betting with a fd then raise the flop and charge the draw.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 12:20 PM
Given the flop and turn (as played)
What would be an appropriate value bet?

3/4 pot?
overbet?

I think i would have bet more had i thought a few more seconds and calculated the size of the pot before I bet.

I did not think villain had a flush draw. Hense the not charging for it. The cold call preflop was most likely a pair given the villains tightness.

Thank you all for the critics. I really appreciate it.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno876
Given the flop and turn (as played)
What would be an appropriate value bet?

3/4 pot?
overbet?

I think i would have bet more had i thought a few more seconds and calculated the size of the pot before I bet.

I did not think villain had a flush draw. Hense the not charging for it. The cold call preflop was most likely a pair given the villains tightness.

Thank you all for the critics. I really appreciate it.
1/2 to 2/3 pot on the river is a good VB
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote
01-20-2012 , 01:28 PM
I just mentioned this in the other "handling donks" thread, but your line is basically the exact same line I would take.

Surprised at preflop; a $10 raise UTG folds to the BB? Wow.

I also just call the flop. There's only one draw out there and it isn't as likely since we have a high club. I think raising just gives an opportunity for tighty to fold.

I also just call the turn. The turn bet size (1/3 of the pot) is a little suspicious. It's either a scared pair now concerned he's beat by a flush or better pair (therefore no point in raising since he'll probably fold anyways) or it's an absolute monster sucking us in and hoping we hit our river for a 2nd best hand (again, no point in raising cuz we're way behind).

We have 1.5 PSB of a stack left. HOC states that we're committed to any reasonable bet when we have less than 2 PSB stacks left, although I personally think that might be a little much. I don't think we're committed if we bet a reasonable amount, so I'm also bet/folding about 1/2 PSB. Villain's hand really looks like QQ-99 to me and I think we get paid off most times thanks to our passive postflop play.

ETA: I have no idea why some want to raise this turn. This guy is a tighty (he limp/folds preflop) and he just bet an I'm-scared $20 into a $60 pot on a 3-to-a-flush board. There's very few worse hands he's calling with other than a perhaps a high pair with a club draw, and my guess is this guy could probably even find a way to fold those.

Gnicehand,imoG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 01-20-2012 at 01:35 PM.
1/2 NL Line check: KK, Villain donkbets two streets Quote

      
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