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1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board 1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board

11-02-2011 , 04:47 PM
Alright, since this is my first post, I'm going to give you a brief history on me. Feel free to skip it:
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I'm an early 20's college graduate. Last year, while I was looking for full-time employment, I started playing live at two different local casinos to make money. And I was quite profitable. I moved up to 2-5, probably before my bankroll could sustain it, and thankfully went on a two month run w/o a single losing session. A mix of a good edge on the game and crazy run good. I then took about 6 months off from playing. Had hit some variance and got a job. Just wasn't feeling it anymore. I used my bankroll to fund some nonpoker stuff and didn't start playing again until I vistied friends in vegas for the WSOP.

Now, I play recreationally at two different casinos about 15 hrs per week. Mostly 1-2 as I build my bankroll, but I'll take shots at 2-5 here and there. I went on another pretty epic run to hit a real tough stretch a couple weeks ago, and I decided it was time to address some leaks. That's how I ended up on this site.

* I guess what's most relevant is I'd classify my self as a Tagish player, and for some reason, despite my age, I almost always have an impeccable table image(This isn't some kind of strange brag, just true). I'm way profitable lifetime, but like I said, there are leaks I can improve upon. I've been playing 1-2 homegames since I was 17. Strangely as an introvert, I prefer the interaction allowed by a live game. Hopefully you're input will help me improve
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So here's the hand:
1-2 nlhe 9 handed
cast of characters
BB ($47)- been nursing one buy-in for three hrs Middle aged man. Playing pretty tight passive. Kind've got grinded down to 24bb's, no big hands that I can remember.
MP ($225)- Early thirties black guy, on his second buyin. He's a solid tag player, but he's having a rough day.
Hero in hijack ($485)- Played pretty solid so far, haven't shown down a losing hand in 3 hrs at the table. Been the only one willing to 3bet at the table.
CO/main villian ($167)- Early fifties bald white man. He's been at the table for an hour, but I don't remember any hand of significance that he's played. I really dont have much of a read on him.

Preflop action:
Folded to MP1 who makes it $12, his standard raise.
Hero looks down at 66:
I considered all three of my options. Been 3betting somewhat wide to good success, but I'd like to try and hit a flop. Not folding here in position with good set mine implied odds. Raiser is the kind of player to potentially stackoff in this spot
Hero calls $12 in hj
Villian calls in cutoff
BB also calls

Flop ($43 after rake)
678 rainbow

BB checks
MP1 cbets $25
Hero flats?
I raise here fairly often trying to chaseout draws and push Mp1 to a decision if he has an overair, but just calling seemed right here. By his bet size and his playing style, I thought there was a good chance he was leading out with air (AK?), and I wanted to give him another shot to barrel. I wasn't worried about the bb, he only has $35 left, my raise isn't chasing him out with a draw. And as far as the co, I didn't want to pot commit myself against a made hand w/o much of a read on the player. This could be flawed thinking but I like just calling in this spot. Would love your input...
Before villian/co can act, BB says "im all-in for 35 total"- dealer corrects him
Vllian/co thinks for a second, then says something like "I guess im going to beat you to it"
Villian/co shoves for $130 more
BB changes his mind, folds
MP1- cries about never hitting his hand and folds
Hero decision? ($130 raise, pot is $248)
Ill give results and my thought process later.

Thanks for indulging the long post.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 04:54 PM
Welcome to the forum.

Three betting pre is horrid. It is probably -EV against typical $12 opening ranges in this spot but certainly not as +EV as seeing a flop multiway.

Flop is just a poker stove effort.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 05:10 PM
quesuerte,
Thanks and I agree about preflop. Probably oversold how much I thought about 3betting, will do that only a very small percentage of the time in this spot.

I guess I'm more interested in should I repop the cbet flop and thoughts on the allin decision.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 05:13 PM
Well the first thing I'd pick up on is that a decent TAG is NEVER EVER c betting air into 3 people on this board.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 05:33 PM
quesuerte's right about the pokerstove thing, but I will say there is no way in hell I'm laying down a set in this spot for only like 85bb. If he's shoving in 150bb I might try to find a fold.

I really don't like the flat call here. You're offering a nice cheap price for either or both of two opponents (not even thinking much about the shorty) to draw on a very drawy board. I think just raise it up and either take it down or isolate MP1 out of position and probably with an inferior hand.

By the way, that was a hell of a post, especially with the background and reads.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 05:39 PM
I'd also call preflop. It's just over 5% of our stack, but we'll have position, plus if we call hopefully we can get a couple of others to tag along.

I'd probably raise the flop. If raiser has an overpair, I'd rather start getting in money now before a scare card slows down the action. If we raise to a typical 3x = $75 that'll create a ~$193 pot with villain having $138 left, so I'd guess I'd shove the turn and hope villain puts me on a draw and can't fold his overpair. With other villain's only having 24 BBs and 83 BBs total, I'm not worried about stacking off here with a set.

As played, I probably call cuz I've got a set with < 83 BBs vs main villain + dead money.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 06:10 PM
Call, hit case six on river, ship pot, ez game.

it looks as though, MP1 has T9, 77, 88, quesuerte is right in his assumptiom that a solid TAG is not firing with air into 3 callers, but he could be overvaluing an overpair that didnt want to 3bet pre as you said he was having a rough day maybe his run bad continues. Did you fill up OTT/OTR?
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 11:29 PM
It seems like the consensus is I should raise the flop. And for the most part I agree. I do that almost always in this spot, but I dont think flattings terrible here. The two downsides of not raising are missed value against MP1 when he has an overpair and the potential for allowing the eventual villian to limp with a drawing hand cheaply. To the former, I read him right, he had air (AQs- I do understand it's not typical for him to have this betting into 3 oponents), probably shouldnt have called him a "solid tagish player" in my description. And I was willing to risk the many action killer cards in the case he did have a premium hand when I knew I'm almost always dominating the preflop aggressor with my set. To the latter, I'm not worried about the short stack as my raise is not getting him off a draw and so I'm kind of only taking the chance the c/o doesn't have a 9.

Now here's the advantage of flatting. I get repops from the c/o sometimes with hands like two pair and overpairs that I dominate, while getting the chance to reevaluate if he bombs it. I won't have committed enough that I can't get away from my hand. It could potentially lead to more difficult decision making however. Also, if it folds behind me, I peel in position with an underrepped hand(though I mightve just called with a straight here too) against someone I likely have dominated. And if he does have air as I for some reason suspect, it gives him another chance to bluff at it.

If I raise and he still shoves behind me, at least my decision wouldve been alot easier as I'd be committed.

I'll post results sometime tomorrow morning, if anyone cares...
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-02-2011 , 11:38 PM
I do like a raise OTF, but as played call. Hopefully if you're beat, you're not drawing to 1 out.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote
11-03-2011 , 10:15 AM
Flop ($43 after rake)
678 rainbow

BB checks
MP1 cbets $25
Hero flats?
Before villian/co can act, BB says "im all-in for 35 total"- dealer corrects him
Vllian/co thinks for a second, then says something like "I guess im going to beat you to it"
Villian/co shoves for $130 more
BB changes his mind, folds
MP1- cries about never hitting his hand and folds

Hero tanks a little then says "I can't believe I'm folding this" and lays it down (no show) ($130 raise, pot is $248)
When villian initially shoved, I immediately thought obvious call. But when I see that I'm getting less than 2-1, I realize it's a closer decision. I usually don't take that long deciding, but since I had no previous read on villian, I needed a minute.

Here's what it came down to for me. He could do this with:
1. A big overpair he slowplayed on the flop- AA-JJ (Some of these oldguys go tight passive pre to tagish after the flop)
2. Two pair 87- I'll discount the liklihood of 86 or 67
3. A set (88 or 77)
4. Semibluff with 1010, 99, 55, 89, or 79 (Don't see him calling pf with 85,75, and ill discount 65)
5. Flopped straight- really only 910 makes sense. Im stereotyping him, but dont think he calls a raise with 95 or 54

Based on his age and the little info I had on him, I thought it unlikely he'd put it all in with a semibluff and I do think he repops with a premium pf and wouldn't overvalue JJ-QQ on that board. From studying him, he looked fairly competent and solid.
That left me with 88, 77, 109, and 87(and I'm not convinced he shoves with 2 pair).
Since I wasn't really even getting the right price against a straight and I'd say he's more likely to have a set then 2 pair here. I let it go. Didn't want to be drawing to 1- out.

Obviously if I had reraise MP-1, I wouldve gotten it in here.

I do think folding was better here but I understand calling. Actually, I think the more interesting decision is to reraise that flop. As I said I almost always do in that spot and I thought I had made a mistake by not, but the more I think about it doesnt seem so wrong to sometimes flat in this situation.

btw- I built a nice rapport with the villian and as he left (up about 300) he told me he had 109 for the nuts. I believe him, he made a similar play 3 more time with the nuts or near nuts after my hand. I guess I wouldve been fine with trying to fill up here if I had called.

Last edited by Manalive; 11-03-2011 at 10:21 AM.
1-2 NL: Flopped bottom set on a coordinated board Quote

      
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