UTG is a thinking player, who believes himself to be a TAG

BB Hero desires to be a LAG usually I end up more LAP.

history/Reads
UTG reads Two+Two

SB: TAP

Context:
9 handed live casino game
The Learner UTG raises to $8 from UTG.

SB Calls

I call with KJ

pot(20) (I took out the current rake)

Flop K76
Ch/ch/ UTG bets $17

SB Folds

I raise to 47 he calls.
pot(111) no more rake coming out

Turn K76 9

I bet $56

He calls.
pot(267)
River T

I bet $75 he raises all in.
$125 to me.

pot(417)

Man I hate being harsh but you call V "the learner" really? You are the learner. This hand is a mess. Fold pre, flop chk/r isolates you agaisnt KTs+ (if he even plays KTs UTG, not all tag do) & KJo+... OTR you don't beat anything.

I would call to make sure I lose the most money so I remember to fold KJ to TAG UTG open. 3betting is the only way you can squeeze some EV out of this situation.

As played, I think its a fold on the river. What can you beat? Is V really bluffing all-in for 125 more in a 417 pot? This is a situation where some people will say "i'm getting 3.25/1, how can I fold, he could be bluffing" but really, how often is this a bluff? In 1/2 games, I say pretty much never.

The interesting spot in the hand is your decision to C/R the flop. Since you are OOP and will likely be making escalting bets on future streets, I prefer to have a highly polarized range when I C/R the flop. Either a monster that wants to GII or air that is hoping to take it down right there. With a medium strenght hand, you put yourself in a tough spot if your C/R is called.

I prefer either:

(1) leading the flop, or
(2) calling the smallish flop bet and leading the turn for a medium sized bet (1/2 pot).

Option 2 will likely halt the action from all but the best of V's hands, and will allow you to get to a cheaper showdown. If you get raised, easy fold.

Dude, I'm a learner as well. That's not a bad thing.

He is a thinking/learning/player, I consider him the best player at the table.

Edit* I'm unsure if he is really a TAG or not.

c/c flop, or b/f. C/R is seriously overplaying your hand. AP, fold river.

my plan was to fold on flop/turn if he ever raised. I believe him to be a passive player who would raise with KQ+ , GS+FD or better and SD+Pair.

I just thought I was getting outplayed by this guy with most of his holdings if I just call flop. I thought he would pretty much barrel all turns without a club, and I feel like I can never win the hand. If I c/c flop, do I fold all turn bets?

Why didn't you tell us that in the OP?

Wait, that's passive?

Sounds like a good reason not to call a raise with KJo OOP.

It seems like for some reason in your head if you c/c utg's range becomes super strong but if you c/r, his range is somehow weaker. The opposite is true.

I didnt' mention in original post because because I'm unsure what he is. I mean, he knows how to be and is well versed in two+two. He's a winning player. If I asked him he would say he is a TAG, but I'm not a believer yet.

*Edit
About folding KJo OOP:
That's my point, I called with KJo OOP because I think I can outplay this guy. I c/r flop so he couldn't just barrel 60% of turn cards with nothing and make me fold and make me play a guessing game.

TAG = Tight AGgressive
LAG = Loose AGgresive
TP = Tight Passive
LP = Loose Passive

Sorry man, but this hand is really bad. You're close to making the worst possible decision at every point. Preflop is definitely a fold against a typical tight UTG opening range. The only possible reason to raise the flop is to turn your hand into a bluff and try to fold out KQ/AK/AA (rarely a good idea although maybe not as bad against this guy) and you'll have to fire on later streets for that to ever work. OTT, well, you've put yourself in a crappy spot with poor decisions on earlier streets so I guess you might as well fire again, although it's probably better to just give up now.

What are you doing on the river? Are you bluffing? What kind of range do you think he gets to the river with? This just seems like a lot of button clicking. Check your pot sizes, something is wrong there.

While I appreciate the reminder of player types. I am unsure he is actually TAG. Even though he thinks he is a TAG and has studied to be a TAG.

I expect all those hands to be raising me, so no, I'm never trying to bluff them out.

I was betting so I couldn't be bluffed off the hand on the river.
I'm guessing the consensus is going to be that Is a bad reason. : )

You write a little strangely (The Learner?) so it's best to use standard terminology to avoid confusion. Tight passive = TP, not TAP, which would literally mean tight aggressive passive.

Your thinking is a bit disjointed here (or maybe it's a disconnect between your thoughts and what you've written). You think villain is the best player at the table but you're going to outplay him by calling OOP with a hand that plays poorly against his range??

he is better than everyone else at the table.
I'm unsure about me, but according to you all I am def worse.

I could be wrong, but I am convinced I can outplay him.

I should have written TP, thank you. I now see why I was instructed with the player types. THanks!

the problem is I'm unsure if he's TAG or TP.

Doesn't look like he's bluffing, more likely AK, AA, maybe even KK. Unlikely, yes but it happens.

So did you call?

Really AK? AA or KK? I think all those hands would just call river bet.

and yes, I did call.

How should I play the Ahigh FD on flop/turn/river?

Pre : Brutal. You're against an UTG TAG opener and and Tight passive SB calling? Their hand ranges are probably both ahead of KJo. Calling is arguably the worst option pre, with squeezing probably being slightly better, but still really bad. Just fold.

Flop : Check/raising makes no sense to me whatsoever, you're badly overplaying/over-representing your hand with this play. You're behind when he calls, so it's not a value bet. You're not getting better to fold, so it fails as a bluff. So the check/raise is only good as a protection bet, which is generally not a compelling reason by itself to make such a bet. Just check/call.

Turn : As mentioned in the flop speech, your bet just doesn't serve you much purpose other than "protection"

River : Honestly I don't know. This is a spot I might consider shoving, as the board ran out amazing to try to bluff villain off of AK/KQ/AA, and I don't think we get him off those hands with a $75 bet.

Didn't see the straight complete.. obviously he's repping the 8 for the made straight.

Could be 78, pocket 77/88. Some 2 pair combo.

So you called, what exactly do you think you're beating? He's raising pre and shoving river. You can't even beat AK or KQ. Only thing could be an Ax clubs hand that missed the river flush.

that's why I love the typical 1/2 player. they just donk call anything.

what did he have?

Don't take all the criticism you're getting in this thread personally, OP. We all have to start somewhere, just look at it as an opportunity to pick apart the holes in your game and make improvements.

I agree with the consensus that calling UTG's open with KJo from the BB is not ideal, but honestly with these stack sizes calling the extra $6 closing the action isn't THAT bad, IMO. I'd still rather just fold, though.

The flop is where things seem to go off the rails. What do you expect UTG to call your check raise with that you beat? You pretty much have to just hope that he's cbetting with a flush draw, but it seems like you really have no idea what his range is here.

Once you get called I guess I would continue to bet the turn, but look at your sizing. You're betting $56 into $111, which means even if villain is calling your flop raise with some sort of draw (best case scenario), you're giving him the right price to continue with his whole range to try to hit one of his outs.

I have no idea what you're doing on the river when you lead $75 into $267. Are you trying to get called by worse? Because the only part of villain's range that we beat here is a missed flush draw which isn't going to call anything anyway.

In any case you've put yourself in a terrible spot on the river OOP in a bloated pot with TPWK and no idea where you're at against villain's range. Villain can conceivably show up with straights or 2 pair here, but he probably does have some missed flush draws in his range that we're beating. We also can't rule out sets or even AA since we have no idea if villain is tight-passive or tight-aggressive.

I really don't know what I'd do here as played... this seems like it would be a great spot for villain to try to bluff with a missed flush draw after we've shown weakness by betting so small, but we're literally beating nothing except a pure bluff at this point. We're getting ~3.5:1, so I guess call if you've seen villain make this kind of move with a missed draw before. Otherwise just fold.

This was bad all around but hopefully you learned a valuable lesson

- Fold pre and this is nothing but a bad dream
* c/c flop
* c/eval turn, if he isn't the type to fire a second barrel and bets then you probably fold. if he likes to double barrel then you likely need to call here

- When you get better, still fold pre, but consider the occasional 3! (though I save this for a MP+ raise rather than UTG)

Agree with all the technical comments you've received so far. No need for me to say the same things.

This statement of yours is what concerns me the most. Taking any action just because you think you can out play someone is the wrong way to approach the game.

Most important fundamental is to play your game\make your decisions based on the range of hands you think your opponent has. Start with assigning a range to his hand, then consider your own relative to his and how he is likely to react to different actions you could make.

In this hand, looked like you were just clicking buttons hoping something was going to work for you.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using 2+2 Forums

Thanks again for all the thoughtful responses, and any unthoughtful ones!

To flying triangle.. all criticism is welcomed, the only way to get better is to learn from our mistakes.

note
i put the incorrect pot size in the after turn pot. As 56+56+111=223 so i bet 75 into 223 otr. : ) much better uh? j/k I know you all arent a fan of this...

Pre-flop everyone want me to fold, or if I desire to play a higher variance game we find 3! as an option.
The UTG player usually 4-bets or folds, so 3! light is something I primarily save for hands like A5-A2s or K5-K4s. I am very polarized with 3! vs this opponent. KJ is a loss 3! vs this opponent and isnt an option in my mind.
(folding seems to be the best play overall as it prevents tough choices later, but since I didn't) on to the flop

Everyone is saying Donk/Lead. Donk the flop and fold to raise or call the raise and fold to a turn bet.
I c/r to put villain in a place where he reads my hand for strength on the flop. Which is OESD+FD or GSSD+FD, P+FD, or 2P+.

Villian should think this is my range, and possibly AK or AA...

When I c/r, his call puts his hand range into two categories, weak draws or one pair hands.
I am under the assumption that if he had 2pair+ or OESD+FD or GSSD+FD, he would go ahead and try to get it in on the flop.

Ott, i bet small with the same thinking, if he has a real hand, he is raising, if he turned OESD+FD or GSSD+FD or Pair+OESD, he should be shoving here to get me off one pair hands. So, when he calls my turn bet I believe he is representing weak made hands and weak FDs. As I believed (maybe wrongly) that OESD+FD or GSSD+FD would shove the turn to get me off AK or AAs...

OTR, it is essentially a brick/... The only hand he makes it here with is 88's and do 88's really call my c/r otf???

I believed any 8cXc would raise all in over my turn bet, and I would have folded, but he didn't...

OTR I bet because I can't ch/f as i am ch/folding my entire 1-pair and often my 2-pair and set range.... SOooo, I bet $75 to give the appearance I would fold to a shove... even though it wasnt much... I think that's right as almost everyone here says to fold to the shove....

I appreciate everyone's insight. I don't want to be results oriented and have\will diligently consider everyones thoughts and opinions. You all have obviously put a lot of time into the game and my desire to learn out ways my ego. I think I made mistakes in this hand that turned out well for me... But that doesn't mean it was right.

I have another thread I c\r KJ TPMK... and they came to the same conclusions....
So, I need to really think about it...

To all those wanting to know, villian shoves all in, and I tank call.
He raps the table, shows QTcc (a suprise to me that his draw was that strong. He turned his hand into a bluff) I table KJo and he asked how I called. My response was I expected him to think I would possibly fold a set for the $125. So, AK, AA and even KKs weren't in his range. I thought his hand was the nuts or nothing. Excepting to fully see AQcc, AJcc, ATcc.... or something like that....

Thanks for all the input guys, also; again, I'm not being result oriented, I understand a mistake is a mistake and I put myself in a lot of positions to be outplayed. Thankfully it worked out well....

Also, here is another thread I c\r in... feel free to berate my play, Im here to learn and have think skin!

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-tpgk-1511712/

I say KK's, AAs and AK are not in his range because I think they raise flop or turn... QQ's and JJ's may be in his raisin range otr because he turns his hand into a bluff.... But I only see 8's, QJcc, and FD bluffs raising my river bet...

Man, your reads are all over the place. I definitely advise against any fancy plays against any player you call "thinks of himself as TAG," "a passive player," and "a suprise to me that his draw was that strong" about 2nd NFD that turned a gutshot to go with it.

Maybe the worst play of the hand. nice of you to tell him how to beat you and tell the fish how to range, all in one.