1/2 NL at MGM Vegas.


Hero (UTG): $440. Probably viewed as a TAG, a bit on the nitty side as I've been pretty card dead. Haven't shown down many hands. Showed down TJ vs. AA on a 89QA earlier.

V1 (SB): $220. fairly active Preflop, but probably the worst player at the table. I've seen him do really strange things, like limping with AA in the previous hand, then smooth calling my button raise multiway. His stack has fluctuated significantly over the past several hours. Very sticky, has been 3-bet a few times and has not folded, but I haven't seen any of the hands that he's done this with.

V2 (Button): $450. Very active preflop. Calls way too many raises, and raises too many hands. Can be sticky on the flop, but likes to get to showdown cheaply once he sees the turn. Haven't seen him bluff much, and he has generally been very passive postflop once the pot gets to a decent size. He is drinking and talkative. Just arrived in Vegas and has a few hours to kill before he can check into his room. I get the sense that he is over rolled for the game, and has his name on a 2/5 seat. I think he is a fundamentally competent player, but he is not playing well at all right now. Calling when he knows he is beat, and not making aggressive plays when they are warranted.


Table has agreed to a round of straddles. First two straddled hands passed without incident. Small PFRs took down the pots from players not involved in this hand.


Hero Straddles for $4 UTG

1 limp, V2 limps, V1 raises to $12, BB calls, Hero Calls, Limper calls, V2 Calls.

Flop ($60) K74

V1 checks, BB Checks, Hero bets $40, 1 fold, V2 calls $40, V1 folds, BB folds.

Turn ($140) J


What's my line now? Villain's range preflop is really wide. he's calling the 12 with anything that he limped his button with, which is pretty much any 2 playable cards, all the way down to like 46o. I think he needs a decent piece of the flop to continue, but there's almost nothing out there for draws. I guess he's probably calling the flop with any 7 or K, but he likely won't call another bet with a hand that I beat other than 56, or maybe KT, but I think he may fold KT. He views me as pretty tight, and we have been friendly at the table. I doubt he calls me down super light here.

bet/fold $70

With your description of him, I'm going to think I am good here most of the time and bet $80-$90 and expect him to fold most of the time. If he calls I would only bet the river if it was a K or Q and fold if he raises.

I'd say you put in another valuebet thinking that he has 56 or a lower pair (says the noob)

Check for pot control with a plan to bet/fold about $75 on the river. This should keep some 7x in his calling range, as well as pp's 88-TT.

Of course you could go for the second street of value here as well, and to charge the draws (56).

Bet $80. I guess I fold to a raise, but hate it. Probably value betting most river cards.

I think I go for some pot control and check. At this point you have a 1 pair hand so keeping the pot small as possible is important and he is likely to what to see a cheap showdown with all his weaker hands. You will get a good feel for whether your way ahead or way behind. If the turn is checked through I like a thin value bet/fold on blank rivers. The way you described him he isn't going to try and steal with hands you have beat and that's a pretty dry board as far as draws go.

Easy bet for value. No reason to check vs a villain who calls too much pre and is sticky posy flop (meaning he will call with worse) keeping the pot as small as possible vs described villain is really weak tight and leaving $ on the table. Don't give him a free card.

People advocating for a check on turn, are we check calling? and then check folding river?

I think the fact that v2 limped on the button makes his range huge. He could literally be playing any 2 here. After his flop call, I would range him on sets, 56, or any K (weighted towards weaker K's since he didn't raise on the button pre).

I think I prefer a smaller value bet on the turn to get value from his 56 or weak K's (I bet/fold). I feel like checking makes us very vulnerable to getting bluffed off of the best hand.

3 bet pre for value

V2 description:
"Can be sticky on the flop, but likes to get to showdown cheaply once he sees the turn. Haven't seen him bluff much, and he has generally been very passive postflop once the pot gets to a decent size. "

if Kx is a large portion of his range he has little chance of catching up so I think I am check folding turn as nitty as it may sound it just doesn't seem like V is getting out of line much at all. I like check because it adds some doubt that we have a king and we can get a call on the river by all his random Kx hands and maybe even some 7x hands. If V bets huge we save some chips by not having to bet fold. The only value hand we are ahead of is K 10 and the only draw is 65 so i feel pretty good about check folding turn and goin for thin value on the river. If I were going to call a turn bet I would just go ahead and bet it myself.

Side note: don't we want to go multi way with a hand like KQs, if we 3 bet for value we may end up isolating someone with a better hand OOP. Why not take the great odds and see a flop? It could certainly at least be argued that calling is totally fine.

fwiw, I hadn't seen this guy bluff at all. He had been looking to get to showdown with his made hands and I don't think he is turning weaker made hands into bluffs here very often. Not sure what he would do with a draw if checked to. I think I would be check/folding to most bets in this case if I opted to check.


I think there is some merit to this, and it's why I included a detailed description of the pfr. I hadn't seen him raise from the blinds yet, which is why I opted to just call.

What makes you think he doesn't have K9, K8 and K5s type hands in his range? Based on op's description of villain I wouldn't discount garbage hands like those. It is 1-2 after all.

Edit: check folding this turn is beyond nitty. Its terrible. How do you make $ playing like that?

the term "check/fold" tends to be synonymous with giving up on the hand. In this case, I still expect to be good a lot of the time, and I expect the villain to check behind most of the time.

I'm not necessarily arguing that a check is the best play here; I'm not sure what the best play is, it's why I posted this hand.


All I'm saying, is if I'm checking, it's with the intention to fold if he makes a sizeable bet. I don't expect him to bet this turn very often though, and much, much less often when he has a hand worse than ours.

Bet 80. Sigh and fold if he raises, it could be anything from 77 to J7 for a turned two pair. He's more than likely not making a sophisticated bluff with 65 or the likes if he raises the turn and you can lay it down as at 1/2 they usually have the goods when they flat a dry flop and raise the turn.

So we are thinking he is betting hands like K9 and K5 K8? Do we expect him to call another bet with those hands. Did you read the Vs description? I don't check fold this all the time it really depends on the bet, the villan etc. I think it's way too optimistic that we will ever get 3 streets of value against his weak Kx hands. I think the best value rout is to wait for the river and bet 2/3 pot assuming he checks the turn back. We could even get value from 7x if we wait until the river.

I am trying to minimize losses and get max value. Sometimes waiting to get value can be better. Also I'd be pretty shocked if V ever bets this turn with something that doesn't beat us. There is more than one way to play any given hand and IMO this way would be better in this given situation. Take it or leave it.

I make money by playing big pots with big hands and small pots with small hands and picking my spots. Not over valuing TPGK

the problem with this hand goes back to the flop.

I don't think you should donk out a hand like this. I think a better line would be to check call this flop because now we have to bet the turn and fold to a raise and that's just terrible.

If we check call it keeps our range much wider and lets him bluff all his air while we can happily call down with what is most likely going to be the best hand.


so as played i'm not too happy about bet / folding but I think that is the best line.

I think a better line would of been to check / call flop - check / evaluate turn - and if he checks back than donk bet river. We never took the aggression pre by 3betting so why are we going to start donk betting a 1 pair type hand vs a guy who you think is "good" and will clearly cbet this flop. If he doesn't we can start happily betting turn and river for value.

I disagree with this simply because it is 5-ways to the flop. We can't be sure he is betting this flop. My normal rule of thumb in these situations is heads up or 3-way... I'll take your line, check call or take lead on turn if flop checks through. But 4-ways+ I'm donk betting. Just a thought.

+1.

This thread huts my head.

This is an auto 3b preflop for me. Most likely fold if SB 4b though.

As played... x/f turn? WTFO?

Maybe you might x/c on the turn, but fold? WTFO? Insanity run amok!

The most interesting questions I have:
-- What are you doing if V1 leads the flop?
-- What are you doing if V1 x/r flop?

IMO, b/f the flop once V1 checks. Sizing is good.

I am certainly not giving V2 a free card on the turn. If he turned 2p, I expect to hear from him presently. b/f $80.

V2's range here is pretty weak IMO. Is he really limping on the button with KJ+? I'd be a little concerned he might show up with K7s or K4s, but I'm not giving him any more free cards.

Check the turn to keep pot small. You have no hand for a big pot. What you've got? --- Just top-pair. You don't want to build the pot up. Plan to value bet the river but fold if you get raised.

Big hand big pot.
Small hand small pot.

Bet the flop, check the turn, bet the river.
I dunno, just my two cents.

I'd be more inclined to bet flop, bet turn, check/call river if there was a flush draw out there also.

Yes. I do expect him to call with worse and in did read the op. He stated villain raises too much, calls too much and is sticky post flop. All more good reasons to bet/fold the turn.

many different ways to play this hand on ever street. I'm checking the turn because I'm never really getting 3 streets w/ a bet/bet/bet line. I'm check/calling turn, evaluate river. If it checks through, which I would expect it to most of the time based on op, I'm bet/folding 100% of rivers for value.

If V1 leads, I'm calling most bets on the flop. Re-evaluating turn.

If I get C/R by V1 here with V2 calling in between, it's a pretty easy fold.




anyway. Rest of the hand isn't very interesting. I posted the hand because I think it's a leak of mine to not go for value often enough in these kinds of situations OOP.

Hero thinks for about a minute and checks Turn. I didn't think he would call another bet with a hand that I beat. I fully expected him to check behind most of the time here and only bet his 2-pairs and sets (which he has rarely).fwiw, I think this was a mistake, and the chance that he calls a bet with a weak King, plus not giving villain a free card outweighs the potential negative of value owning ourselves when he has 2-pair. but I think it's pretty close between betting and checking this turn.

V2 Checks behind.



River: 10


Hero bets $80



results:

Should be betting this turn pretty much always imo. Unless you're up against a tight villain who would never flat that dry flop woth kx garbage hands and only continues with 2 pair +