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1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff 1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff

12-02-2015 , 11:10 AM
$1/2 live full table:
HJ Villain ($350)
CO Hero (covers)

Villain: Typical low stakes player with loose-passive tendencies. He limp/calls a lot pre with the occasional raise. He tightens up and gets a bit scared by the turn/river. He does think about the hand and is more positional aware than others.

Hero: I've been raising small pre ($7-$10) all day, especially in position. Most of the table has terrible postflop skills and give away their hand strength by checking or bet sizing. I'm trying to play as many hands as possible in position and see a lot of flops. I'm probably perceived as a bit of a bully and have won 2 pots this orbit. I heard some grumbling about winning so many pots a couple hands ago and I'm wondering if I'm starting to lose some FE.

Table: Lots of limpers and callers pre. Very fit-fold postflop. Most of the villains play very nitty once the pot gets above $100.

Hero AK
1 EP limp, V limps, H raises to $10, limper and V call
(I wonder if I should have raised more. Table folds to most preflop raises over $10 and likes to see flops for less than $10. I think raising more than usual would give my hand strength away. I have a good hand in position and want worse to call)

Flop ($30) J96
limper checks, V bets $15, H calls, limper folds
(I think V donks here with almost any draw or top pair JT+. In the past, he has bet bigger on the flop when he really hits it. I still have position with some overcards and back door possibilities so I call.)

Turn ($60) 5
V bets $25, H raises to $100, V thinks for a minute and calls
(Based on previous hands, his bet size tells me he doesn't love his hand. I expected this semibluff to work and I'm a little surprised by V's call. It's possible my image became a factor and he wants to play back but isn't sure how. I think he reraises with a set or two pair. I think his range is still mostly top pair or a draw. I'm starting to think he might call and look to trap with a straight.)

River ($260) K
V checks, Hero?

Should I check for a showdown or bet-fold TPTK for thin value? I've been aggressive at the table postflop and I think this V has a value check-raise in his arsenal, but not a check-raise bluff. It's hard to say if he'll call another bet with Jx. I think V's range is JT+, QT, 87, and busted flush draws

Comments on all streets appreciated.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 11:18 AM
He has 32 combos of straights and 6 combos of KJ. Against that, he has 12 + 12 + 9 = 33 combos of one-pair hands he might call with. Seems like a check, especially given that he might well fold one pair here.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 12:29 PM
It's pretty thin, but I think it might be worth it anyway given table dynamics. It's going to hurt if you lose, but I somewhat prefer not to showdown my hand. Stack sizes kinda suck though.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 12:36 PM
Not sure how we can b/f when we have <PSB remaining on the river
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND
Not sure how we can b/f when we have <PSB remaining on the river
That's irrelevant if he's sure villain is never bluff shoving (or accidentally bluffing with something worse)... I mean we've gotta be careful here... Some villains will just say F it and come over the top with like KcQc, and it would be a disaster to fold to that hand.

Still, because of stack sizes, I might just a do a mergish kinda bet and ship it myself. If he thinks you're FOS and is calling you with one pair for $100-150, he'll probably think the same if you shove.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 01:26 PM
A guy with loose/passive tendencies is donking into a LAG on this flop with QTo,87o? I would be surprised. Then, with the nuts he just calls OTT and then checks the effective nuts OTR? This doesn't make sense to me, but I wasn't there.

If you really give him all of those combos and think he can be trapping here, it's an obvious check back given we can't really bet/fold.

Given our image I'm just folding OTF against a V who we expect to double barrel us a lot (an assumption based on the ranges you are assigning).
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes
That's irrelevant if he's sure villain is never bluff shoving (or accidentally bluffing with something worse)... I mean we've gotta be careful here... Some villains will just say F it and come over the top with like KcQc, and it would be a disaster to fold to that hand.

Still, because of stack sizes, I might just a do a mergish kinda bet and ship it myself. If he thinks you're FOS and is calling you with one pair for $100-150, he'll probably think the same if you shove.
If a shove is only get called by a K or better, it's not a good value bet with the ranges assigned. $100 might get looked up by JT,QJ, (AJ???)which are an extra 24+combos.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
If a shove is only get called by a K or better, it's not a good value bet with the ranges assigned. $100 might get looked up by JT,QJ, (AJ???)which are an extra 24+combos.
In spots like this where our range looks a lot more polarized than it actually is, I think calling frequencies from jacks don't change a tremendous amount from bet sizes.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 02:03 PM
Love the thought process and play throughout the hand OP, well done. I agree, his weak flop lead looks exactly like a jack. To have the straight he would have had to specifically have 87cc to lead out and trap you on the turn. He looks even weaker on the turn with this bet, so it really seems like he has a JT type hand or just a bare flush draw. I would interpret his pause to the raise as consideration for chasing or folding.

Based on your reads that villain will gets scared at the end I think I check this back because he'll only call with hands that beat us. If we can only find one or two hands that he'll call and a bunch that he'll snap us off with, it's not going to be worth it.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alecspade
Love the thought process and play throughout the hand OP, well done. I agree, his weak flop lead looks exactly like a jack. To have the straight he would have had to specifically have 87cc to lead out and trap you on the turn. He looks even weaker on the turn with this bet, so it really seems like he has a JT type hand or just a bare flush draw. I would interpret his pause to the raise as consideration for chasing or folding.

Based on your reads that villain will gets scared at the end I think I check this back because he'll only call with hands that beat us. If we can only find one or two hands that he'll call and a bunch that he'll snap us off with, it's not going to be worth it.
One of my frustration points with 2+2 comments is when we're bluffing (suppose we have AQhh), responses say "Your line looks so bluffy, and 1/2 players don't fold; any jack is going to snap you off there." But when we're value betting, then responses become, "Your line looks way too strong; he can never call with a one pair hand here."

So my question is... If we had AhQh, then surely you think we should shove this river as a bluff, right?
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 02:21 PM
$85 on the river.
Live read and mostly fold if he shoves on you.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 02:23 PM
more pre
fold flop
shove river
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes
One of my frustration points with 2+2 comments is when we're bluffing (suppose we have AQhh), responses say "Your line looks so bluffy, and 1/2 players don't fold; any jack is going to snap you off there." But when we're value betting, then responses become, "Your line looks way too strong; he can never call with a one pair hand here."

So my question is... If we had AhQh, then surely you think we should shove this river as a bluff, right?
Well in this hand we have showdown value but far from the nuts against a villain who is either really weak and our read is that he'll drop his weak hands here a lot, or that he's trapping us with a straight which obviously he's not folding. If we have total air here like AQhh then yes we have to shove the river since its more likely he has that JT and will fold. We don't really have a choice since we never win at showdown except against busted clubs. Here we have a choice as we win quite often at showdown but almost always only when we check behind since this villain is playing scared.

I don't mind a value bet on the river, but I think a shove is pointless.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote
12-02-2015 , 03:29 PM
shoving the river is really sexy, especially with your image, if you think villain can range you on missed draws/air and talk himself into calling with Jx, but I'm not sure this is the right villain to do it against.

I think shoving or bet/folding $80-100 are both okay.
1/2 live AKs - Thin river value with TPTK after semi bluff Quote

      
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