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<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP <img - KK 4 way on turn OOP

12-23-2012 , 07:41 AM
Unknown ($200): First hand. Just sat down at the table, no read. Chip runner is getting him chips and he says call.

Old asian lady ($350): Limps almost 80% of her hand. She calls raises with weak hands, chases draws on board, pays you off on river if she catches a decent hand, raises when she is really strong. Pretty much the biggest target at the table.

Villain reg ($300): I just doubled up through him like 3 hands ago w/ AA v A5 on 853 board where he called my 3b OOP, donked flop, donked turn and called my raise. Has a LAG game but seems like he doesn't know how to manage his aggression very well. Spewy and tilt has been factored into him.

Hero BB ($~490): Playing tight, but has been raising PF larger then what the rest of the table is accustomed to and has 3 bet twice in the last orbit. I have been raising my BB couple times with limpers, but I have had hands (ATs, JJ) but it looks like I have been trying to steal the dead money couple times.

PF:
Unknown limps
Asian lady limps
2 other people limps
Villian reg completes SB
Hero raises 19 w KK
Unknown calls 17
Asian lady calls 17
2 people fold
Villian reg calls 17

Flop Pot: $76
T72
SB checks

*Hero is deciding everyone's range, deciding how much I should bet on flop, not the greatest texture on the flop, but I do feel like I am ahead here most of the time. I then ask the unknown player how much he's playing behind since he is the player I'm afraid the most. I put him on a PP, the lady on any kind of MP/FD/SD and the guy in SB w any 2 cards. Then out of the turn, the unknown bets $50 and I see the lady about to call and then I tell the dealer, I have never acted. So at this point, I think the unknown has a real hand, the lady is on a draw.


Now that I have seen the action before me, how much should I c-bet on the flop? I am scared of the unknown player who looks like he flopped a set of 77 or 22 but my conventional poker knowledge knows I have to cbet on this flop. But my gut says he's strong.

Hero bets $45
Unknown calls $45
Old lady calls $45
SB calls $45

Turn ($256) 4

Okay, I feel like I am beat at this point, but that 4 has not changed the action at all and if I feel like I had the best hand on the flop, nothing has changed. I do know two people are on a draw, so I felt like I couldn't check and give them a free card, and at this point I bet $125. Should I have opted to check here instead?

Anyways unknown calls $125
Old lady folds
SB calls $125

Last edited by JPDynasty; 12-23-2012 at 08:01 AM.
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 07:55 AM
If you were to check the flop would the out of turn bettor have to bet?
Could the out of turn guy have raised your flop bet?

I would shove the turn as I think there are enough draws and top pairs for us to be winning, but I think you should bet a little bit more on the flop; 55 is good.
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 08:07 AM
Yeah, his bet of $50 would've stayed and the lady would've called the $50 and SB (??) probably would've since he did, and it would be left to me with 3 callers on that board and I would have an option of check-fold (on the super nitty side but goddamn does that unknown player look strong and with my gut knows I'm beat) and check-jam. Yes, he had the option of raising me, but he just opts to flat. I considered the c/r line if I did decide to let his bet stay and have the lady call but I would've not considered that line seeing I would be called by my read of him having a set.
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12-23-2012 , 09:08 AM
You should have let the guy bet out of turn, let the lady call, then check-raised to $200. Don't know how you can just assume someone flopped a set...
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12-23-2012 , 09:29 AM
There are times to be cautious with an overpair, and there are times when you must simply extract maximum value. I disagree that this is a bad flop texture for us. It is the kind of board where people will pay off large bets with insufficient equity. It seems like these villains will either overpay for draws and overvalue worse made hands, so I would bet/call close to pot on the flop, and jam any turn.
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 09:42 AM
Well, I didn't initially put him on a set; however, it was the out of turn bet that made me feel he was really strong. The guy sits down limps, calls a $19 raise and bets into 4 people on that board w/ no read. I didn't initially think he had a set, I was narrowing my range of what would limp/call and then bet $50 into a board, and basically since he is an unknown, I put him on a respectable hand range rather than T7/72/T2 unless I have seen he plays hands like that. When I cbet flop, I had his range consisting of 99/88/77/22/Tx/club draws/98 but since that lady was about ready to call, I put her on the flush draw since I know she plays any 2 suited cards and calls flop. She is not going to call w/ MP there, so assigning the lady the draw, the unknown looks very strong to a made hand
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 09:47 AM
I would've piled it in on the flop. I think the turn is a great card for us and we have a pot sized bet back so should shove. I do not think a set would just call with this drawy board though of course it is always possible.
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12-23-2012 , 11:38 AM
I would jam the turn. Its a great card for us and it makes the drawers pay to get there. Checking is definitely your worst option
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 08:42 PM
The OP has a serious case of the MUBS. So what if the Villain was in a rush to bet? Maybe he is just in a rush to play and bet his AT, passively played JJ or QQ (not uncommon in LLNL), or his draw. If his bet was binding, I would have allowed it to stand, and then checkraised the hell out of him and anyone else who was foolish enough to call his bet.

On the other hand, if the OP really believes that UTG has a set, then he should have just checkfolded the flop.
<img - KK 4 way on turn OOP Quote
12-23-2012 , 09:14 PM
All his bet means is that he has a ten. Seriously, you called him an unknown. His range is unknown. C/R. he can't fold worse once you do.
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12-24-2012 , 12:37 AM
after he bets out of turn, light bulbs never went off in your head to c/r that flop?
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