Villain: Winning reg, pretty aggressive against weaker players. $600 stack
Hero: Not too much history with anyone at the table including V. So far have played tight/ABC, got a full double up on the first hand on the night off a pre-flop all-in with AA. $595 Stack

Hero Opens KK from UTG+2 to $10, MP Calls, SB Calls
BB 3-Bets to $52
Hero 4-Bets to $150
Villain 5-Bets all in for $600.
Hero?

If it's a fold, that would mean that this deep, KK would be a 4-Bet bluff(planning to fold to a jam) and AA would be my only value 4-bet. Would flatting the 3-Bet be a better option? Villain is definitely not jamming QQ here and most likely not jamming AK either. What's the GTO line in this spot.

The 4b is not a bluff. You are raising for value vs his 3b range.

If you think his 5b jam is exclusively KK+ then folding is good. I would have to see him do some pretty spewy stuff for me to think this is anything but AA.

Still hard to fold KK pre.

I my opinion it can certainly be a 4 bet for value, even if you are gonna fold to the 5 bet allin 300 BB deep.

Like its still a valueraise because we obviously dont know that he have AA as we make the 4 bet. However, as he 5 bet jams on us that scenario is becoming alot more likely.

If villains only 5 bet range this deep is indeed AA, you are doing fine with 4 betting the hand you want for value up until that point. You can still get value from worse hands than KK of course, that villain may choose to take a flop with such as QQ or AK.

Exactly my point too.

And additionally: at this stack depth, 300BB+ we are certainly in territory where we have to be prepared to lay down KK in some rare instances. We are just too deep now to be autostacking off with KK pre profitably.

This seems to be one of those instances as far as i can tell.

If he's not jamming QQ or AK, I think you can fold. I know "they" say never to do that, but sometimes you just know you are beat.

I might flat the 3bet if he's only 5betting w/ AA/KK (unlikely hand, but possible). Would he flat the 4bet w/ AK/QQ/JJ or anything else?

What's his 3bet range?

As played fold. His value range is precisely AA and I don't think he is bluffing into your EP 4bet because if V is competent and views you as ABC he probably doesn't think you have a 4 bet/fold range.

I know this can't be optimal but because my games have few 3 bets, I rarely 4 bet w/o aces. What range do you think V is 3betting a tight ABC player who opens in EP? My guess is QQ+/AK, which if true, makes 4betting KK not great as he can fold QQ and maybe AK. Not sure what 4betting accomplishes unless I'm way off on Vs 3bet range here.

A little picky here, but I love when we label a player and then state we have limited experience with them. I do the same reading of players but it's still interesting that we can conflict with ourselves in just two paragraphs.

IF we have a winning reg then I'm going to give them credit for seeing you at your own described image ... tight ABC ... which means that 4-bets are a very narrow range, but 'do' include QQ (maybe not JJ). (JJ really suck in this spot since 40% of Flops contain an over and set mining is not quite there even this deep at 1/2.)

IF we have a winning reg then I'm going to give them credit for knowing that set mining into a 4-bet with only 6.5x implied odds is not a winning play. Thus ruling out smaller pairs. (Hero has eliminated QQ/JJ from V range, not me )

V has 6 combos of AA ...
V has only 2 combos of AKs ... ruling out 6 combos of AKo
V has one combo of KK ...

6 combos crushing, 2 combos crushed, 1 combo chopping .. $450 to win $770 ... you need to be winning around $900 in this spot.

If you want to sprinkle in even 2 of the AKo combos, then it's an easy call!!

It's that close based on your comments ... Adjust your comments accordingly!! GL

LOLOLOLOL @ above logic.

So everytime you raise and someone reraises and you fold, you were raising as a bluff?

Absolutely not!

You are 4betting for value. If he flats, he has JJ/QQ/AK a lot. If he 5bets (which he should never do, because look, you’re considering folding KK now), you can easily muck. I would flat your 4bet with AA as villain in position all day in this spot and get your stack on the flop. Terrible play by V.

Also, if you’re going to flat the 3bet this deep, you’re losing your stack postflop almost always. The 4bet helps you get away when he decides to 5bet and turn his hand face up an idiot.

I disagree with the first part, as our range remains a bit wide (maybe 99+,AK, AQs since we are deep enough to set mine) so I think V should only be going for 2 streets of value and at 1/2 size pot bets we're not even getting half our stack in.

But I am intrigued by the idea that we may lose less by 4betting, as it could clarify the situation. What do folks think about this? I thought flatting the 3bet was optimal given the range I assigned V's 3bet (QQ+/AK) but this argument of getting clarity now has appeal to me. My only reservation is that it feels almost like we are "raising to see where we are at" which (rightly) gets a lot of disdain in this forum.

Sizing to me looks weird for him to have JUST AA. Why wouldn't he make it like $325-$350ish, hope you call and have an easy flop shove? 4x 5-bet is odd, but maybe I am too suspicious.

I mean, I can count on one hand the times that I called off a 5 bet with KK and I was ahead. I would need like 40 hands for the other way.....

A bluff as defined as a hand we're planning on folding to a 5-bet jam, obviously KK is not a bluff, I was just bringing it up in terms of the theoretical 3-bet/4-bet strats where hands we plan on folding to raises are considered "bluffs".

Very true about V essentially turning his hand face up.

Regarding the first part, I’m sure AA is going to bet really hard, certainly more than 1/2 pot on both streets on a lot of boards, so it’s very likely your entire stack goes in on non-A high boards. Also, I don’t know if people really 4b 99-JJ/AQ here like you said. It’s pretty unlikely, so V can easily bet three streets for value often to stack you.

Regarding the second part, I’ve actually had quite a bit of success with that play because live players play super ABC most of the time. Most of them just never 5b QQ or AK.. like EVER. It’s important to identify those who are capable though.

Yeah, raising to find out where you’re at is bad in general, but it has its merits in some cases like here IMO. You’re exploiting V to the fullest when you can 4b/fold KK when deep.

Thanks for the thoughts and I'm really need to think about 4b/folding in these kind of spots instead of flatting 3bet.

Regarding the bolded, I think you misunderstood. I said people would call V's 3bet with 99+/AK/AQ, not that they would 4bet it.