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Old 09-14-2021, 06:53 PM   #1
pianotree
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1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

1/2 with $300 buy in. Hero is early 20s white guy who just sat down.

8 handed. I open JJ to $10 first to act, super loose passive player calls to my direct left. Folds to btn who is a very heavy black dude with a "keep it 100" hat (the emoji) and he pops it to $60. I have $290 and both players cover. He has been calling a lot pre and is clearly a rec player.

Folds back to me. I thought his big $60 sizing was more likely to be AQ/AK so I 4bet to $160. Folds back to btn who quickly says "you can have it all" and goes all-in.

Should we just flat the $60 and look to navigate post? Is it too assumptive to weight that size toward AK w/ no history? As played, do we call it off?
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Old 09-14-2021, 07:50 PM   #2
QuadJ
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

A 5 bet jam from an unknown opponent with AA/KK well over 90% of the time. You can easily fold if you have not seen him make big bets or bluff a lot. Remember that your 4 bet range has to be weighted towards big pairs, so his 5 bet range will generally be absurdly strong.

At 1/2 villains often bet big with AA/KK because they don't want people to draw out on them. Others just have terrible bet sizing. So without knowing anything about villain it is very hard to read bet sizing.

There is no easy way for you to navigate this situation. Flatting preflop is going to leave you with an SPR around 2 and not many flops you like. 4 betting preflop puts you very close to committed with something at the bottom of your 4 betting range.
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Old 09-14-2021, 07:51 PM   #3
Amanaplan
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Of course call AP. The first time, I think you’re overestimating what his range is, but if you’re correct and you have a spot in between I’d for sure lean call and stack off on good boards.
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Old 09-14-2021, 08:32 PM   #4
hitchens97
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Loose Passive 5 bet jams - this is an insta fold with JJ. I don't care what race he is, how much he weights, what he's wearing, unless you've seen him get completely out of line, thiis is a fold, and yes, just flat the 3-bet.
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Old 09-14-2021, 08:53 PM   #5
Amanaplan
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

160 and fold for 130? Eh.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:17 PM   #6
timmay28
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Don’t 4b/fold big pairs in 2021 live poker getting odds like this vs vast player pool, described villain no exception
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:18 PM   #7
troloyolo
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

You already decided to get it in here when you 4b it.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:53 PM   #8
hitchens97
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
160 and fold for 130? Eh.
Oh missed the stacks. Well in this case, don't put half your stack in, just 4b jam, which I don't think you should do either.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:24 PM   #9
pianotree
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

As played I have to call off unless I am literally certain he only has QQ+. I need ~22% equity to call, which is easily achieved once you throw in a combo or two of AKs.

I do agree with Amana that keeping the loose passive player in the pot is good. And, even if I am correct that villain has a lot of AK, 4bet/calling still is only slightly winning.

But flatting and playing JJ OOP in a multiway bloated pot isn't much fun either. Unless the flop has a J

Gross spot. I lean slightly towards Amana but still need to think about this one.
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Old 09-15-2021, 02:15 AM   #10
WereBeer
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Don't put in $160 of a $290 stack unless you're snapping off a call or he shows you his exact hand before ripping it in. In this spot I flat the $60.
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Old 09-15-2021, 06:55 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

In this situation facing a 3 bet pf, I don't have a 4 bet range. I'll call with AA.

As played, call to punish yourself for making a 4 bet with over 50% of your stack pf with an unknown. The racial, weight stereotypes for poker no longer apply (if they ever did).
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Old 09-15-2021, 10:45 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Fold to the 6x three bet from the loose passive.
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:13 AM   #13
pianotree
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Fold to the 6x three bet from the loose passive.
This seems too tight but I could believe it's best... The squeezer had bumped it up a couple times before (over limps) but I hadn't seen him 3bet squeeze yet. The loose passive player I mentioned was the caller in between.

What does your continuing range look like against the squeeze? You're obviously assuming his range is super narrow, so you don't think we have the implied odds to set mine?
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:44 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Quote:
The loose passive player I mentioned was the caller in between.

Yes, but you also mentioned the black dude was "calling a lot" and a "rec" so it seems reasonable to me to infer from your description that he is also a loose passive player.
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:56 AM   #15
pianotree
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Yes, but you also mentioned the black dude was "calling a lot" and a "rec" so it seems reasonable to me to infer from your description that he is also a loose passive player.
If you're certain his range is so strong, would there not be a lot of implied odds if I flat the $60, which would also bring the other loose passive player along?

Folding JJ to a 3bet seems extreme.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:04 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Unfortunately we are only getting 1.6:1, so we need to get another 6 x 50 the times we hit, which exceeds our total stack size. And even if we are stacking off 100% of the time we hit, it's not with 100% equity. Calling to set mine would be a substantial error imo. That we have a player behind, who could be playing second hand low, and reopen the betting, is not to our benefit.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:39 PM   #17
411Heelhook
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Calling pre is standard, folding is exploitative but good vs a lot of the 1/2 player pool, 4 betting this hand really shouldn't be done without a lot of history to suggest stacking off here is a good idea or your opponent is 3betting way too wide, 4bet/folding over half your stack is legit a worse line than accidentally flipping your cards face up.
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Old 09-15-2021, 07:46 PM   #18
pianotree
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Unfortunately we are only getting 1.6:1, so we need to get another 6 x 50 the times we hit, which exceeds our total stack size. And even if we are stacking off 100% of the time we hit, it's not with 100% equity. Calling to set mine would be a substantial error imo. That we have a player behind, who could be playing second hand low, and reopen the betting, is not to our benefit.
Ugh, did you have to justify it logically . It just feels wrong to fold JJ pre to just a 3bet. Kidding, that makes sense and I can see folding here being a powerful exploit vs an unknown loose passive.

I am curious, with hands you do continue vs the 3bet, how do you play them? Do you flat call your whole range and bring the other player in? Or do you just immediately go for stacks vs btn? Something like flatting AA/QQ and 4betting KK seems reasonable. How do you play AK in this spot?

Thank you for your posts
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:14 AM   #19
JayKon
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Re: 1/2 JJ facing 5bet jam

Consider that it's seldom a good idea to get overly aggressive when you don't know the table, they don't know you, you're not that deep and you're out of position.

In that spot, I 2-bet, call the 3-bet and play post-flop.
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