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1/2 how much to bet on river? 1/2 how much to bet on river?

03-23-2013 , 11:24 AM
Main villain is old. Old old old. Always small raises any A-rag but does check down boards when he just has a TP or 2nd pair. He has ~$800, and this is the second time I've played with him. Overall, his game doesn't impress me much.

Hero is, as usual, lower 20s but looks 16. Had a bad run of cards early, rebought in after my stack got down to $50 (stupid fish chasing flush draws) and was playing a lot looser than usual early. That was 3 hours ago. I had since tightened up and made it back up to $250. He probably views me as tighter.

Hand:

1 call, I call in UTG+2 with 22, folds to CO who calls, BTN calls, SB calls, Villain in BB checks

(Why not, I figure? If I hit a set, then awesome. If I don't, meh easy fold.)

Flop:

K47xxd

Checks all the way around. There's no way with just 22 I'm taking a stab at this pot not being OTB.

Turn:

2d

SB bets $25 (I think he meant just $5, but he threw a green chip in without saying anything, which means a straight bet to that amount), Villain calls $25, 1 fold, I raise it to $75, folds to SB who thinks and folds. Villain tanks, mumbles something like "I want to see what you have" and calls the $50 more.

On that street, how is my bet sizing? I feel $75 is a good amount, as it looks good for a flush draw (SB probably) to call despite bad odds and it kind of should set up for a shove OTR as I'd have ~$170 left in a $180 pot.

But when he says that and doesn't shove or make a move after a bet and then a re-raise, I feel 95% confident he has exactly K8 or some two pair with a K combo.

River:

5x

Villain checks, Hero bets.....??

Should we shove here? Should we bet smaller to give him good pot odds? We know we're best, it's just a determination of how much to bet (I have roughly $170 left and the pot is roughly $180)
1/2 how much to bet on river? Quote
03-23-2013 , 11:31 AM
As played I'd bet like 120. I don't think he is calling a shove all that often. But if you raise to 90 on the turn, then I think you can shove the river a lot more profitably.
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03-23-2013 , 11:37 AM
90-110 , Hopefully get him to call with something like 2p , i don't think he is calling a shove.
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03-23-2013 , 11:56 AM
How do you put him on exactly K8 or two pair? Both seem rather unlikely, and his line is very weird. It feels like he's trapping, I'm still betting though and if he's calling any bet at all he's going to call a shove, so I'm shoving to get those weird 2 pair hands to pay as well as the guys who think AK is a limp and trap hand, if he's slowplaying a set so be it. If we were deep I'd just make a value bet and fold to a raise.
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03-23-2013 , 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Snow
How do you put him on exactly K8 or two pair? Both seem rather unlikely, and his line is very weird. It feels like he's trapping, I'm still betting though and if he's calling any bet at all he's going to call a shove, so I'm shoving to get those weird 2 pair hands to pay as well as the guys who think AK is a limp and trap hand, if he's slowplaying a set so be it. If we were deep I'd just make a value bet and fold to a raise.
If he is trapping, so be it. But when that second diamond hits in such a limped pot and he doesn't raise either of the bets, it screams some sort of two pair. He was in the BB and got a free flop, so he could have any 2 pair combination. KK would have raised PF, he doesn't have 22, so it'd be either 77 or 44. Basically, him not raising after my raise confirms to me he doesn't have 77 or 44 because he would have shipped it (at least I feel).
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03-23-2013 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsnapzbrah
If he is trapping, so be it. But when that second diamond hits in such a limped pot and he doesn't raise either of the bets, it screams some sort of two pair. He was in the BB and got a free flop, so he could have any 2 pair combination. KK would have raised PF, he doesn't have 22, so it'd be either 77 or 44. Basically, him not raising after my raise confirms to me he doesn't have 77 or 44 because he would have shipped it (at least I feel).
Ok cool 2pr works, K8 is never calling the turn raise imo unless it's K8dd. No matter he's not folding the river unless he was only drawing so I'm still shoving.
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03-23-2013 , 12:16 PM
your actually giving him close to 3 to 1 ott, so that coupled with his IO actually doesn't completely price him out of his draws, unless your never calling any sort of bet otr or folding to a c/r, which is definitely the plan with his description.

river i'm bombing at the minimum 140, so might as well just shove since its under a psb. if you think he can never fold 2pair here then why would you ever bet less? and his weaker tp hands and draws are folding anyway, so might as well target the top of his range
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03-23-2013 , 12:29 PM
turn raise maybe $90. shoving the river. if he is calling 100+ with 2p he is probably calling 170. he has $800 in front. not upset if he doesn't call my shove.
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03-24-2013 , 09:39 AM
I shoved, but given the villain's tendencies and verbal clues, he already felt he was beat. So maybe a $100 bet would have been better and he would have called. Either way, he folded to the shove OTR and said he kad K4. But I probably should have bet more OTT to make it an easier call for him OTR ($90 would have been $155 into $355 for him OTR, makes it easier for him to call).
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03-24-2013 , 09:59 AM
yea. wouldn't worry about (lost money) him not calling the shove here. (it happens) K4 ahem. right.

in general though i find that people tend to stack off easier if there is still some hope for their hand.
i.e. flop or turn. It is very hard(ish) for them to stack of on the river especially if they are also in position and see their complete hand.

Turn is naturally least variance inducing street (with one card to come)
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