LOL, exactly my point.

The board is Q/Q/x rainbow, and you're arguing that hero should have raised more pre-flop?

Explain to me, if villain is holding A/Q, K/Q, Q/J, or Q/10, how would raising more change anything?

So villain won't call with a dominated hand and we win a small pot pre-flop?

Villain's stack is $375, which means effective stacks are #375

Pot has $63 going into the flop, with villain left with $345

SPR is 5.5 not 10

You get easily exploitable and/or wont get action if you 3bet to 50, simply to bring the SPR down to 3-4.

You have to raise based on the table tendencies. If an EP raise of $12 gets everyone to fold before the action is on you, you have to raise in a congruent manner

Of course it's better to put as many chips in the middle as possible with AA pre-flop, but in this instance, do you really think $40 more in the pot and $20 less in our hand is really the main factor whether we ship this flop?

If so, you're probably going to be struggling in LLSNL while scratching your head and wondering why.

I thought villians stack was 575. I stand corrected on the spr for the 30 bet size. Saying we will not get action from a player who loves action if we raise to 50 is crazy though. And to say its exploitable? Please explain how..

Even from a value standpoint we want to get as much money as they will call into the pot when we have the best hand. Bet what they will call. If he calls 30 he will call 50 imo.

I have not begun to discuss if we should be stacking off here. I'm explaining why the preflop betsize is poor.

Raise size in LLSNL is an art more so than science.

If we can get away with raising $100 with AA against a certain opponent, then we should always do so.

But if a small 3-bet like this one would induce villain to bluff on this kind of flop because he puts us on AK or small pair, then we should be more inclined to 3-bet small.

To say that we should raise a certain amount simply because it lowers our SPR is not good poker.

Against an unknown, yes, it's probably best to raise bigger pre to create lower SPR. But against a regular, one should always adjust to the tendency of the player. In this instance, I would fault OP for not having the necessary information even though he has been playing this particular villain for years.

So yes, if I were in villain's shoes, I probably would have raised bigger simply because I don't know what villain might do, but that's besides the point now. Raising bigger pre-flop is a given, but it's pointless to even discuss it when it serves little purpose in solving this hand.

After 4 yrs of dynamics id be playing for stacks with this guy. I think he def has enough air/semi bluffs in his range. And if villain knows we think he is good, and our image is on the nitty side, this is the most exploitable spot ever for villain. Goin off sould reads on this one. Call flop, get it in on turn.

You're not understanding where our profit comes from. We want the villain to call with bad odds, that's when we make money. Therefore, we want to raise enough preflop to allow him to make a bad call. By giving the villain good odds to call, we lose money. Simple enough for you?

I am not understanding it, or I thought this was given?

How is pointing out something obvious going to help to solve this hand.

Please tell me in this scenario, how will raising more preflop better solve this hand.

We're kinda getting carried away by PF bet size. Goal w/ AA is to get heads up IP and we did it, so mission accomplished (sure, a slightly bigger bet would have been more desireable, but not really a big deal)

Flop. No concerns about protection, you don't need to bluff, and you are not getting value from a whole lot of worse hands, because you are either WA/WB, so check. Also, reasons for checking include deception, and shutting out the move makers. Here, your check is very deceptive and you keep an aggressive opponent from c/raising you, so check and play for a small pot.

After he c/r, his range is probably compeltely polarized. I doubt he turns JJ, 1010 into a bluff by c/r. Don't think he is getting it in with KK (and he might have 4bet pre anyway). So that leaves 20-28 combos of AQ, KQ, JQ and maybe Q10 that beat you and God only knows how many combos that might be bluffing (a lot). So I honestly don't think there is much advice to be given at this point. He is good. You post on 2+2 and recognize he is good, so i assume you are good also. Plus you have played with him a bunch, so I am sure there is some kind of meta game going on that you feel, even if you cannot articulate it. Plus you will have to play with him later on, so only you know whether you should be calling, pushing or folding at this point.

Against these types of players, lesson to be learned is don't put yourself in a spot where you can easily be bluffed off the best hand.

Pre size only makes our hand a bit easier to navigate in terms of spr. But the difference is so minuscule here that this whole conversation has de-railed the thread. Literally we are talking about a $10 diff pre here in a 1/2 game. TBH tho i think hero's pre size its just screaming "i haz a nutted hand" and makes it even easier for villain to exploit us.

But srsly discuss the hand guys plz. Our pre raise is not tantamount to the way this hand has played out.

Always consider the size of the effective stacks (ES)

It constantly amazes me when most dudes neglect the relationship between the preflop open-raise and the size of ES. They apparently don’t understand that this is crucial when determining the best pre and post flop play. Most players seems to think that pot odds only matter when trying to decide whether to call with a hand that need to improve to win. Nothing can be further from the truth. All your preflop decisions are affected by the ES and all your flop decisions got to be correlated with ES and pot size that we call SPR. I mean, all of them. For instance: The larger the pot on the flop the more likely you should bet rather then check. More likely the proper play would swing from calling to raising, or even from folding to raising. Remember that your competent opponents are considering all of this when they are trying to decide whether to call you. Obviously this means you must be thinking about stack and pot size before making any decision about how to beat them.

Coming into the pot for an open-raise of $30 or whatever, because that’s the standard opening bet for that specific table, is ******ed. Absolutely a losing strategy that is characteristic to the general public.

AT,

imo the flop cbet is ok if you would 3bet villain PF with hands containing a queen and he knows it. Do you ever 3bet villain PF with AQ-Q9s, if so I like a cbet more. If this is not the case, I'd advocate checking back the flop for pot control. Then it's much easier to play two streets in position against savvy villain.

BTW, if you never 3bet PF with AQ-Q9s in position you're probably making yourself too easy to read.

I was just pointing this out because it is a very basic concept that you seemed to not understand in your previous post. And not raising more preflop is obviously the first mistake made in this hand. If the preflop raise was bigger then the villain would have less queens in his range and be less likely to have us crushed ldo.

+1 to what AT says, he explains things well.

Is this a level, or are you new to the forum?

Why on earth would you want to remove more queens from villain's range, because it beats us in this hand?

What are we talking about now?

I am not going to argue against AT's response because we are talking with different mindset, but to argue PFR was the root of this tough spot is just bad poker.

I give up. You live donks tilt the **** outta me.

Wow, I really appreciate the debate and advice coming from this post. Your point above is excellent.

#1. I know player is relatively good because he wins a lot and places people into tough decisions. Relatively good to small Oklahoma casino standards.
#2. I'm not so good, but 2+2 and other study really helps. But villain recognizes me as a threat.
#3. I try to play against this villain as often as possible because he creates a dynamic on the the table that increases action dramtically. He knows I do this because I tell him so.
#4. This villain has often tried (and probably sometimes succeeded) three barrelling me with air and missed draws. He seemed to be behaving last night vs. me.

So after tanking for two minutes, considering the past, the present, and the future I felt that the most important thing in the world was to avoid being exploited by villain. So I looked at him, shrugged my shoulders, said 'congratulations sir, I'm all in.'

He thought for 45 seconds, said "I just can't doi it,' and folded AK. Then he went on psycho tilt for about 30 minutes and stacked two players in the process.

You just can't keep the guy down.

The answer is yes, I do 3 bet AQs-Q9s--not all the time of course. I also squeeze a reasonable amount of time--especially off of straddle and often with just air. Villain does that a lot too. If the table is running really limpy and passive it works wonders to irritate everyone. I find what the players locally hate the most is feeling like they are being bluffed.

Your all in was a HUGE mistake. If you have him beat, he's drawing almost dead. You could have easily gotten his whole stack. Flat his raise, hope he continues bluffing.

You are correct that my all in was a huge mistake. I thought he would call me at the moment because he had decent odds and could put me on a bluff as well. To your point it would have been better to let him try to bluff at it again, even if the chance is small it would still be far better EV to do so.

Why, because you can't actually explain your thought process, and betting/raising because you have AA?

I too play the small Oklahoma casino scene. U can make your raise close to 3x the pot and still get callers with those effective stacks. You make your money with aces primarily pre-flop (bad calls and 4bets), pre plus one street (if you cb enough), or on a wet flop that a villain can't get away from. People will almost always call your big raises with the premiums and high suited ace/faces. You want to fold out the hidden hands that can't continue without heavy equity post flop, or play in fear of value towning yourself against flopped two pair hands, or turned hidden draws. Simplify your post flop by knowing that on a qqx board that only aqs or qq remains as probable combos. Then the question is simpler "what does this villain do with his nut hands?"


As played never jam here. You ran off a street of value, or maybe even two from the weaker hands that might continue. He of course will never fold any qs here, as he figures you can only have one combo that beats him. Make your mind up on the flop based on your 4 years vs this villain and stick too it.

these discussions are so funny. and the results are always amusing too

You raise here to $40+. Some people on this thread are arguing over the importance of this preflop reraise. It is NOT only a $10 difference. An $80 pot on the flop as opposed to a $60 pot means bigger subsequent bets on each street.

A standard hand might go bet pot on flop, bet 3/4 pot on turn, bet 1/2 pot on river. But bets after the flop are made in relation to the size of the pot (not discounting stack sizes, mind you, merely noting the first consideration for deep stack post-flop betting). Those extra amounts on each street add up. And aces win >80%+ of the time (or you're playing them incorrectly).

I made a mistake earlier. I said you should check back this flop. This is wrong. If he really is this check-raise bluff happy, especially against you, bet this flop. Make his bluffs really hurt when he decides to. He might take the bait on the turn if you check back this flop, but your range at that point is much less likely to be bluffed off a hand, especially in a smaller pot. If he folds this flop, he folds. He probably was not going to bluff you anyway. This is another advantage of 3betting more preflop. Even loose players tighten up relative to how much more you 3bet preflop. Against his preflop calling range of $40, you're getting tremendous value from times he decides to bluff and hands that look particularly appealing on this flop that call (does he ever fold 77-JJ here?). Against a $30 preflop 3bet, his range is wider, which means his hands on this flop are more polarized to huge hands or complete bluffs, but it now includes more hands that are huge and more hands with more equity against your aces that he can disguise.

Call. Call. Call. All three streets. Raising makes him play almost perfectly against your hand. You make money when he makes mistakes and you capitalize on them. Let him bluff (and value bet) himself to death.

That is why the preflop 3bet sizing is so important. ESPECIALLY in this hand.

Overall, as a rule of thumb, I get AA in on 99% of hands against super aggressive players in 3bet pots.