Everyone at this table has played together a bunch. Room is all regs.

Hero is early 30's, hippy by Midwest standards, seen as aggressive by most. I haven't shown anything crazy tonight as I've been playing fairly snug ABC. I have a lot of play time with this particular villain but he doesn't know any better.

Villain is 60 something midwestern white guy. Very loose passive. Will play ATC preflop for a limp and has no problem calling raises with most. Raises regular raising hands pre. He's openly said he will chase back door draws and doesn't understand why that's bad. Known to shove huge hands as well as big draws and overbetting is very common.

Villain has 370ish in CO
Hero covers on BTN

4-5 limps pre including villain.
Hero raises to 12 with AQo
Villain is only caller.

Pot: 30
Flop: A Q 4 rainbow
Villain checks, Hero checks

Turn: 8d, puts two diamonds on the board
Villain bets 25
Hero raises to 85
Villain shoves for 370 total


Hero?

Seems like a snap given villain description. Plenty of weird two pair and some combo draws

Why the hell on earth are we checking back the flop? We smashed the flop with a station in the pot. Bet and start building the pot asap!

As played against described villain i am never folding.

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Yeah, not betting the flop is really bad and most of the time doesn't allow stacks to get in by the river. In this case according to descriptions , V can easily have A4, A8, Q8. Don't think he has many draws, as he would probably tend to call with backdoor flush draws according to V's profile. So, that is 24+ combos you are beating. You only lose to 44 and 88 which are just 12 combos. So, makes this an easy call.

Betting at least 20 on the flop and snapping it off as played. Can't really find a fold against this type of villain as he shows up with so much worse here.

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OP, can you explain your flop check and turn raise thought process?

ap, never folding here based on your reads.

Not betting the flop is a common mistake for beginner players that have very strong hands. In general, when you have a hand just bet it and it will save you a lot of heartache in the future.

As for your decision, the short answer is get it in because villain is a bad player and we are underrepped.

The long answer is that it depends on how passive and experienced the villain is and what our raise means to villain if anything. For instance, I ran into this spot a couple weeks ago where I called a flop bet with a pair and then turned 2 pair (top and middle). The villain bet and then I raised him. When I raise I'm pretty much repping 2 pair plus and most experienced villains (even whales) will recognize this and go into call down mode with their one pair type hands. So when he re-raises that tells the story that he isn't scared of two pair.

By contrast, I was in a hand the other day where I had KT. Flop came K66. I checked, original raiser cbet, and I called. Turn T. I checked villain bet, and I raised. An experienced player would realize that I'm repping KT or a 6 in this hand and will go into calldown mode but this player shipped over top with AK.

It just depends on your villain, but in general vs a random 1/2 opponent I'll assume they will make mistakes such as overvaluing their hands and call them. I've seen inexperienced players play AK in this spot exactly like this drawing to 3 outs.

I think he has more worse 2-pair combos than 44 (your description of him should rule out AK/AQ/AA/QQ) so call.

Checking flop is a huge mistake as others have said.

Hand was played terrible all around. PF raise should be at least $18-$20 and you should never be checking this flop. As played, snap call and slow roll him when he turns over A8.

Grunch

We under-repped our hand on the flop. Given villain description, a worse two pair or a combo draw are likely. Of course we need to be concerned about a set of 8's or 4's but I think there are more hands he's shoving with that we can comfortably GII.

As an aside, why not bet the flop? A loose-passive player will check/call us with a lot worse.

Good point, way too many limpers for this small of a raise pre.

My thought on the flop was that since it hit me so hard and was uncoordinated, I wanted to give him a chance to catch up a little before I put him to any decisions. I usually play hands like this pretty straight forward, just decided differently this time. After thinking about it, against this guy, I should have just lead out on flop.

The turn raise is due to him getting emotionally connected to draws and the diamond coming. I was more putting him on two pair when he bet near pot on the turn though and figured he would just call a big raise and we would have position on the river.

For some reason at this room, a raise of 12-15 with some limpers will get a call or two but anything over 17 is getting folds all around. 20 almost always folds out everyone. They only see absolute bet size.

$18 pre, pot the flop, wtf turn, I'm not folding. He probably has 88, now kick yourself for not betting flop.

Than you should be raising your junk from HJ/CO/BTN to $17-$20. and collecting these 6.5 BB pots risk free. But I highly doubt that is how your room is operating.

This.

At least you have outs against 88 (I hate calling all-in drawing dead). I snap-call because many Villains think two pair is the nuts.

How do we do against this range?
88
44
84s
Q8
A8
A4

As far as flush draws - do we have any diamonds? Which card on the flop is the diamond? (I'm trying to think of diamond draws that flopped a pair)

If you lost to a set, it's mostly just tough luck if its 44. Your fault for not betting the flop if its 88.

Pretty much the only way I'm folding here is if I have a very strong read on my villain that he has a set.

Even if you have a live tell he has a "monster" he could still consider his Q4 a monster...

Pretty ugly spot.

So it seems the overwhelming response is raise more pre, bet flop and be happy to get it in.

I appreciate all the feedback.

I did call after much deliberation and he had 44 for the flopped bottom set. I was thinking along the same line as most in this thread that I was way ahead to all of his range except 44. Pocket 8's he would have raised pre more than likely. Two pair or one pair with a diamond draw seems more likely to me.

Thanks

I try for live reads on my villains and do often slow down with two pair when I have a read that they are strong. I've checked the flop, flat-called on the turn and check behind on the river with two pair.

Many poker players start to shake when they flop a monster. They also suddenly go quiet and start focusing on their opponents even before it's their turn to check.

You can also use betting patterns. If your opponent is a NIT who only 3-bets the turn with a set or better, you can find a fold. Unfortunately this opponent mixes up his play which makes it very hard to use betting patterns for a solid read.

The other benefit of raising more pre is that it makes limp/call set-miners a lot more transparent. When you get turn raised on a dryish board that doesn't complete any draws, it's a lot easier to peg them to a low set on a board like this.

Obviously I am still not folding top-two here, but if only had AK TPTK or something, it would be much easier to get away.

I don't know if that is considered results oriented thinking, but I always feel players hands are more defined after limp/calling.

TPTK I could easily get away from here, no thought required. Top two was a little different.
I think the difference could have been avoided if I had raised more preflop as everyone has suggested. Making it 18+ and getting a call really restricts his hands to small pairs more.

FWIW I did try to get something out of him by showing him my hand and asking him if it was any good. His responses were, in a dry monotone "you have two pair" "it's your decision to make"
I was hoping for something a little more one way or the other but got very middle of the road responses. I suppose he did move around a little, getting something off his table next to him after that which would suggest comfort, therefore, strength.

That's just a bad beat imo. At the flop, the only thing that's beats you is 3 combos of 44 and 1 AA and 1 QQ, but I'm generally discounting AA/QQ due to preflop action. Given the other possible combos of 2 pair, and that villain would likely Gii with those, we gotta call/jam

If on the other hand, villain was a tight player, then we can find a fold since A4, A8 or Q4, Q8 are much more unlikely (while being the most likely hands we beat that gii vs us here)

And in general, really really bad to to ch back flop here

Also, bet more pre. If $17 gets everybody to fold after several callers, then you should obviously be raising to $17 quite often and picking up that dead money until they catch up and then start to pay off your big boys QQ+/AK

EZ game

-The Professor

The OP ignored your post. I think that the turn raise was by far the worst part of this hand. On the flop we wanted to deceive the Villain about the strength of our hand. That can be okay at times. But then on the turn we changed our mind.

And undoubtedly the Villain description was designed to make everyone say "call". But who knows what that description actually means? Does he over-bet 50% of hands? The OP managed to convince the responders that Villain would be shoving Q8 which may not be true.

The OP did not. You failed to read it.
Thx for the psychology lesson about OP, I was unaware. I was under the impression I was here for advise. Next time I will not provide details and only vague statements and numbers.

I don't think pre is necessarily all that bad. In my room (lots of old codgers), $12 will typically get you heads-up, regardless of action. It's kind of an absolute value thing. It's really room/table dependant.

Seriously, Op, you need to lead this flop, like always.