1/2 Foxwoods

Hero has been playing for about 8 hours and hasn't had the greatest session. Down to about ~$150 from initial $300 buy-in. Pretty much not catching flops, with some minor mistakes and suckouts thrown in there.

Villain: Unknown probably 70+, has been playing for about an hour and seems tight, in MP.

Hero is in the SB with 9h2h. 6 limps from various positions and I put in the extra dollar (thoughts? hand is trash but for a buck I decided to see a flop, boredom tilt I guess) BB checks.

Flop: KhJh10h ($16)

Hero bets: $12, villain calls, everyone else folds.

Turn: blank, don't remember the exact card but a non heart/straight card ($40). Hero bets $30, villain calls.

River: Kh-Jh-10h-x-9d ($100)

Hero checks (hoping he made a straight or inducing a bluff), villain fires $50.

Hero?

I assume we are definitely calling here what about shoving or is that off the rails? Also does this type of opponent bet a non nut hand here? Sizing tells me he at least has a flush.

I don't see how you do anything but call here. I can't see V calling a raise with anything worse but Vs range is definitely wide enough for you to profitably call given pot odds.

And very much fold pre. This is the worst hand and you are in worst position.

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Fold pre 100%. This is why you fold these hands, it gets you in bad positions later IMO. As played, I'd call. Not shoving, because I doubt with this player you're gonna get called by worse but will always get snapped off with a better flush.

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All those calls in the SB chisle away at your winrate. In addition, they signal to the weak players you're a nit so they misrange you everywhere else. The few tough players you will run into will quickly decide that they probably don't want to mess around with you since you actually know what you're doing.

Fold pre. This is never going to be +EV even against fish. It's usually -EV but even if it was breakeven, you're adding variance to your game for no reason. Your aim is to minimise variance and maximise EV, so if a certain decision is 0EV at best and increases your variance, then it's an awful decision.

As played, flop and turn look good. River looks like a clear x/c to me. We're losing to 8 combos (A3s-A8s, AQs, Q8s) and we're only beating 5 combos (87s, 76s, 65s, 86s, 75s) that could call a river x/r, since straights should be able to bet/fold the river. So no point value raising into a range where 8/13 combos that call will have us beat.

Fold pre but as played just shove river yourself. I’m still shoving after he bets. C/c this river when the 4 liner gets there is insanely nitty. If he flopped it just give him the money and kick yourself for playing 92

I don't think calling pre is -ev, even 92s has equity to call when you're getting 15/1.

River is a slam dunk call, nothing to think about imo. Getting 3:1 and we're just good here a lot more than 25% of the time. If you're beat just be glad he messed up & didn't stack you.

I guarantee you that almost everyone is lighting money on fire calling for 1 dollar more OOP with 92 suited. The hand is counterfeited left and right and you'll be guessing from out of position.

AP i’d Shove over the top OTR. Too many value hands that V has to call with. 3rd nuts is plenty good enough for me $150 deep.

What? Just call on river? OMC has a Q here for a straight here like... all of the time. You don't have much left, just stick it in. You flopped a flush with a dream run-out. If he flips over higher flush - oh well.

Clarify? Folding the SB can mark you as a nit, if people are paying attention (and usually someone will say "folding for a dollar?!")

What he is saying is that good players will recognize you know what you're doing if you fold SBs but are aggressive in other spots, whereas bad weak players will think OMG he folded for a dollar he must only put money in when he has a real hand

I'm calling any two suited in the small blind. I probably have this opportunity like once every 5 hours, so any affect on my winrate isn't that bad, but getting this price I'll probably take it.


With your stack and this board, I'm taking a bet/bet/shove line vs this runout. As played river is a jam. I'm not sure how you can tell he has a flush from a half pot bet. If you can realistically range him to only a flush then I guess you can fold, but that's crazy talk. He may have raised a flush at some point here, and so many other hands got there and can bet in his spot. I probably just jam the river and go for the sigh call.

Technically true, especially if you're a pro. But as a recreational player playing for fun once or twice a week, sure I want to win money, and I won't be donking off chips just to gaaambooooool, but I will gladly play a 0EV +variance hand to keep the night more interesting.

If the whole table limps, I'd call 9-2s for a dollar for the chance of a dream flop like this one or 9-2-2.

Just recognize that if you do this, 9-2-x is not that dream flop! It may win a small pot, but it usually becomes a fold with heavy action. I think a lot of people overplay small flopped 2 pairs because it happens only 1 in 50 hands. Unfortunately it still ain't that good, and you have 4 outs to improve.

As for the OP's hand, against anybody else I'd raise the river. OMC though, especially for $50, I'd call. I feel nits in general make the error of thinking in absolutely dollar amounts instead of bets in relation to the pot, and $50 at $1/$2 is a big bet for a nit.

This is a great reminder of why rec players see way, way too many hands preflop. I don't say that to pick on you, but it is a reminder that a lot of players at 1/2-1/3 didn't come to the boat to fold 85%+ of their hands preflop. They came to limp/blind in 35% of the time.

This also played into my logic, hence why I thought he at least had a flush.

Anyway results:

I shoved ai over his bet thinking that even if he had a flush I probably had a higher one.

He didn't snap call and hesitated for about 5 seconds which was strange (maybe so nitty he thought I had a straight-flush?), but then he turned over Ah7h for the nut flush.

My thoughts on SB - If someone gives you a dollar to play a crappy hand in the worst position preflop, would you do it? Hell no. But people voluntarily put in a dollar in the small blind all the time. Though if it's a loose-passive table, I will call some hands due to pot odds but not open up the range to do it.

Just a cooler. Do you think he'll fold a Q there to a shove?

If he's that tight (didn't even raise turn for value or price out fullhouse draws) don't give him any action in the future.

It's not really a cooler. This is why you have to fold this hand preflop in a 4+ way pot. How often do other people get their stacks in on a 3 flush board in an 8 way pot like this without a flush?

I think Venice can speak for himself, and I appreciate you echoing what I said but you didn't clarify. The post said that calling the SB signals to the weak players you're a nit and they misrange you everywhere else. Maybe it was a typo, or maybe there's some higher-level thinking I'm missing.

Two people flopping flushes and the board running out to another big hand that fits V's line is not a cooler? It's a perfect storm of unlikely hands that got V paid. It's like set over set, but rarer.

I think we're being 'fold flop' result oriented here - this hand would have played the same with 9h8h or 8h7h. Are we folding those too because sometimes people make better flushes? I'm not saying 9h2h is playable whatsoever, but we're using the result to justify folding 92s when it actually flopped well (this time).

It's only $42 more for hero (not villain) to be stacks in on a $200 pot.

I think venice means folding the SB, but yet that had me confused and thought he was being facetious too.

We saw the flop 8 ways. It is NOT a cooler to get it all in with a sucker flush and lose. Sorry, I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I see this nonsense all the time.

If hero and V are getting in 75 bb on a 3 flush board in a limped pot with an unpaired board - on the river, no less - what is OMC V's range here? I get that in this hand it's a little better with the Q on the board, so I really don't mind river action, but the fundamental problem is we're playing bingo hands preflop like we're a fish.

5+ way limped pots are nut peddling poker hands when you start getting stacks in/contemplating raises, where people who think they hit bingo with sucker straights and flushes lose.

Venice was not trolling, this is a basic fold pre, and that's really the most important spot in the hand.

It read like a typo

I think you are shallow enough to shove on the river and get called often enough by a straight to make it worth it.

Nonsense of what? Being afraid of flopping a mid-high flush for fear someone else flopped a higher flush?

So how would you play it if you have 9h8h here?

Perhaps it's a good thing to be read as a nit, if your plan is to be stealing pots and raising with surprising holdings in future hands...