Hero($200): early 30s who just sat down after coming from a broken table.

Villain is in sb and have no history at all with the player. He's probably in his 30s, t-shirt, no reads on v thus far

About 3rd or 4th hand I get dealt AdTh in BB. No significant pots played at the table since I sat down. $200 Eff.

Hero checks option. 7 total players to the flop ($14).
TT8cc
SB checks
Hero checks
Check
4th player bets $7
Folds around to SB who flats.
Hero raises to $46
Folds to SB who insta-shoves for $198.

How often should I have the best hand here? Does anyone think this isn't an auto-call? What range would you put V on? Would a lead-out have been better than a c/r on this draw heavy board?

Leadin flop almost always.

As played, call and do an African war dance around the table.

What he said

Why do you guys think a lead out is better than a c/r in this hand?

1. You risk giving a free card which would be a disaster.
2. You have a great hand, build the pot.
3. They're much more likely to call a bet then a check raise with worse.
4. If a draw decides to check raise you, you're in a great spot.
5. You're hand is much more disguised.

Because there are all sorts of crap hands and backdoor draws that fish will call with and never bet. Its too likely this gets checked around. If anyone does bet its usually some retarted button bluff and your raise just blows everyone out of the pot. If the turn bricks your one street to get value is long gone. As played I call and hope he is overplaying a weaker T. You lose to 88 and T8. Thats not much.

I'll also add

6. There are many dominated tens that will go to the felt in this multiway limped pot. But maybe not if an action killer hits the turn.

Great points. The only points I might disagree with on this hand are 1 and 5. Being in the BB with 5 players acting after me, I knew there was a very very good chance someone would bet out after I checked. I probably should've mentioned this in the op but 4 of the players at the table I was familiar with as being regulars who for the most part play lag, though not to the point of being wreckless (maybe at times when they're tilting but in general no lol). The one who bet out was one of those lags.

Point 5, I think either way, whether leading out or c/r, is going to almost make it obvious I have at least a 10 since there's 7 players in the pot and I'm second to act. And given my tight image that the LAGs already know about, it's going to be that much more obvious whether I lead out or check-raise. I agree leading out would seem a lot less obvious to fish who are only focused on their own hand and seem oblivious to everything going on around them, but for some reason I didn't think anyone at the table was quite that brain-dead.

I think it's close whether c/r or leading out on this flop is the right play. I mean a c/r isn't horrible I don't think right? Are there any times that a c/r would be warranted in this situation?

Put yourself in their shoes. A bet could definitely be trips. But it could also be something else. A check raise screams trips or monster draw 100%. Any chance you have of not blowing everyone away is by leading.

You say that there was a good chance that it gets bet, but you can't be certain most of the time. It is a FAR bigger mistake to not get a bet in in this spot than to blow out a medium strength hand with a check raise. If you check raise a $7 bet and he folds you've gained just $7. If it checks around, then you've lost waaaay more than that in money that would have called a lead. And if they get there for free you've given away the entire pot.

A check raise is certainly inferior to a lead in this situation.


It would e acceptable if there was a maniac behind you who would definitely bet. Even better your want the maniac to be directly to your left so others could call or raise him before you raised yourself. Otherwise, you're almost always better off leading out.

Plus, you have the added benefit of most players assuming that you'd check raise there. A lot of times they'll think, "I would have check raise AT there so he must not have that."

There's also the thought that if the case T is in play, that person will want to stack off right now and betting out makes it much easier for them to do that before scary stuff hits.

you have the best hand there about 80 percent of the time, very unlikely he's holding a 10, 8 or pocket 8s there....leading also will disguise your hand as everybody else agrees

Still trying to interpret the meaning of the gross overbet. My thinking is that he would not do that with the nuts or maybe he is leveling and would. Perhaps he saw your large bet and figured you had trips and therefore figured you'd call. He did not want to let a turn card kill the action or let you reevaluate.

I think you need to get some live tell on the guy before folding but absent any info, I probably would have folded too. 88 and T8 are legitimate hands given the way this hand played out and rule #1 is don't go broke over a limped pot.

Actually now that I think about it, if he shows any sign of inexperience he's probably got the nuts. He was so excited did not think through about building the pot gradually.

And the fact that SB checked the first orbit around is consistent with trying to trap with a monster.

Lead flop.

SNAP the ship.
Or tank for 15 seconds if there's someone else to act after you to draw them in.

It's been covered, but when we flop a monster that no one should be putting us on, we should bet the ever loving crap out of it.
If JT decides to slow play this flop, and a club falls on the turn and we fail to stack them it's a huge disaster.

BBV is:

<--------

That way...

Yeah, this is pretty much a BBV hand. FYI, I know it's tempting to try and post the big hands you lose. However if you look back at them they are rarely interesting or tricky spots. Beats and coolers, while they seem to stand out because those are the pots where stacks get shipped back and forth, are really just noise. They happen to everyone, are a matter of variance, and equal out in the long run. Our true profit in this game comes from making good folds, thin value bets, and maximizing value when we flop a big hand. If you want to improve your game, post some hands where you think you may have missed a value bet, not bet enough, or made a bad fold. Improving those spots will help your game much more than worrying about what to do when you hold the near nuts and someone shoves on you.

Honestly i didn't expect any kind of response or sympathy. The couple sentences i wrote in the spoiler were just a spontaneous vent on my part. The main reason for my last post was to show the results as i do for most of my hands.

But, this thread was worth it for two reasons:
1. Nice discussion of use of active aggression at 1/2. Passive aggression (especially a checkraise habit) is an ineffectual adjustment. There are a lot of things you can get away with at 1/2, and this may be one of them, but it's not as strong as you can be.
2. Mental image of Spike doing African war dance. Priceless