This hand also makes me think about playing deep live-low.

I don't like to play deep. For a few reasons. First all, if you are only 100BB deep, this is an easy shove.

But live-low players are hard to play with deep because they don't adjust their shoving ranges deep. They don't "know" they should fold. They don't "know" they shouldn't ship. They don't "know" how to play deep.

I usually leave when up 100BB, or table change back to 100BB, or play somewhere else. Or take my 1 hour break, and come back with a 100BB stack.

This is the absolute best reason to play deep live low limit. If a player doesn't know they shouldn't ship, or doesn't know they should fold, stop trying to make them fold, and destroy them when you have a monster. My card room has this same ''problem" (you can buy in for 250BB initially, and if you bust out, you can buy in for double whatever you previously bought in with), and it's not uncommon to see a guy stack off 400BB when he makes TPTK with AJ or AT.

You may as well just come out and say, "it's not my fault, they were so bad I couldn't beat them!"

On topic:

If I have a specific read on an opponent (i.e. knowing he only does this with sets or 35), then it's a fold. But lets be honest, for 95% of opponents, you can find enough combo draws and overpairs (as someone pointed out, you don't need many) that you can't really fold here.

I'm not sure if I'd shove here though, as you fold out most of what you beat (overpairs and pair+ draws), and always get called when you're beat. May as well just call and see what develops. I'm still not folding unless the board gets ridiculously ugly, but you want to keep TT-KK shoveling in money, not folding.

Clearly the best play here is to spike a deuce on the turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls-5ZFX1rpo

The reason to put 5bb into the pot is because it is +EV. Nothing else.

uh... but why is it +ev

Very tough fold and I think all the people in here saying to fold wouldn't have. This is a cooler, the way you played it is fine and a fold here is super close. Personally I wouldn't have folded, but it is probably a good fold. Nh

Because we can make good decisions for the next 244 Big Blinds. Most of the time this will be playing big pots when we flop a set.

However, saying don't fold "because we played to flop a set and now we have" is about as useful as "Big hand, big pot, small hand small pot" or whatever other over simplified lines get trotted out to help new players before they understand the deeper concepts.

If you tell me you want to get it in on this flop because we are clearly ahead of his range I'd disagree but take your point. The reasoning you are now backing is for the hard of thinking.

First off what reasoning? I'm not sure what reasoning I gave that could be for the "hard of thinking"

So far the only comment I have seen in this thread that I would consider "hard of thinking" was your post about how if we should never fold a set, then we should never fold tptk when flop a pair with ak, which just makes no sense whatsoever.

Part of making good decisions is that when you do flop a set, you get the chips in the middle. So not doing that goes against good reasoning and might be for the "hard of thinking"

What reads here suggest that this guy is only doing this with the two hands that beat us? The only read that I get which would make this a fold would be that the hero here took the time to post this suggesting that it's most likely a cooler.

OK, good for you, you've never been lucky enough to play in games where villains are bad and unbalanced enough to let you fold a set 250BB deep. Unlucky, but the games and villains DEFINITELY exist. Can I be sure this villain is one of them. No, of course not. Purely form an observational perspective, I expect to see a bigger set enough of the time here, with this betting pattern, to make the fold correct.

Clearly folding tptk and sets are different. I shouldn't have used that, but the point I was making remains that deciding after investing 6BB what you are doing with the next 244 is lazy and clearly sub optimal play.

Just to clarify, at no point have I said that this is a snap/easy fold. I completely disagree that it is somehow a snap call and, more so, with your reasoning to get there.

I had a hand exactly like this the other day playing live. I had pocket fours, board was 4 6 8 with 2 clubs. I led on the flop, got raised, then re raised. I wanted to fold, I new it was the right move but I couldn't.

The only reason I believe this is a fold is:

"We had been playing together for a bit and I hadn't really seen him make any big moves. He was playing pretty solid and rarely can I remember him ever tabling the worst hand."

You said it yourself. I'm not sure if I would have folded either but if I had this read at the time I think I would know I should have, especially with stacks that deep.

I'm also surprised nobody has said anything about the pre-flop call. I'd have to know more about the other villains but I'm not sure calling another 5bb with 22 after an utg+1 raise to 6x bb and two callers while OOP just to hit a set may not be EV+. I'd have to think I was going to get paid off.

Most of the thinking I see in here seems very 'If x then always y'

Everyone is saying we flopped a set gotta shove. I generally ride or die with it also..... but.... look at the action here.

Tight SF player calls a raise pre... Range here: 22-AA, A2s+, A10+, Broadway cards, SC's... and a few randoms.

Flop OR $20, V flats, H- raises, OR folds, V 3bets... Range here: Sets, 2p, Straights. Sets a huge % of the time, 2p a few times but generally he probably would of raised the original bet, and straights if he can call raises with 35, but it'll be rare...

How come not overpairs? 1) He didn't raise pre 2)He flatted the cbet 3)He 3bet us.

I cannot see a SF tight only the nuts player doing this with AA or KK. It is so not typical and would expect to see this less than 2% of the time. And really any OP. Typical SF nuts only with OP's are going to a)3bet pre or b) raise the cbet or c) just flat the raise OTF because or d)Fold to the raise

With a combo draw he's more than likely to a) Raise the cbet or b) call the raise. If he were to all of a sudden make a move and 3bet his combo draw it's going to be a lot more than $100. I can see it somewhere in the neighborhood of about $160. But SF wait for the nuts guy prolly not bettin on the come brah.

Everyone needs to rethink the action here and quit being so 'If x then always y'... just because we did hit bingo, doesnt mean we always have to shove shove shove. Sometimes we gotta fold bingo.


OP dont post results... and dont start off by saying "this one has been on my mind for a while now" or anything like that... typically means man I lost a big one and I can let it go.

Sets are the way to make money in 1/2. If you arent playing every PP with the exception of facing heat (3b, 4b, etc etc) or when someone opens for like $30 and its just lol throwing your money away then you are playing wrong. Especially when it is multiway you want to be in there.

Now with that said... given this action in this hand with said villain.. we arent making money here, we gonna lose.

I think these play out the same way online and live.... Everyone has the same range here.

But yeah... live is just that easy and if you always shove every time you put someone on a range you should be a long term winner. You should go try it.

What does abbreviation "SF" mean in this usage ?

Straight Forward. As in doesnt do anything out of line. Dont be shocked when he shows the nuts.

Of course, this guy in this hand didn't have the nuts, not close to it.

Why I said I'd have to be getting paid off. I don't think playing pp in any situation, even in 1/2 is correct play.

Hm..I dont think that anyone would play it differently. Its a shove on the flop. but if you where too sure that he had a set maybe another line would be to check call and if flush comes you shove representing that?

Am I the only one here who simply calls the 3bet on the flop, then check/calls the rest of the way down?

Villain has to be some kind of maniac/****** for me to 4bet shove here:

Board: 6h 4c 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.384% 49.81% 00.58% 14793 171.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 49.616% 49.04% 00.58% 14565 171.00 { 44, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, 7h5h, 64s, 5h4h }


As far as all you people never folding the flop, please come sit 250+bb deep at my table.

Sometimes you have to fold bottom sets.

The actual fold in this thread is very close and personally one I wouldnt make without a tight read on the villian. There are few people I would fold it too, and if they would only take this line with a set, then obv its a fold. This has been discussed by many people in this thread.

However, a lot more interest for me at least coming with the people that are talking about folding sets REGARDLESS of what the action is to you. Some are saying you have to fold sets sometimes, some are saying LOL, play 22, flop a set, fold... like its the worst play since open mucking AA UTG...

The button's line in this hand...

Overcall a raise preflop...

Call next in to the cbet from the PFR. Then when we c/r, indicating WE HAVE A BIG HAND, he tells us that HE HAS A BIG HAND TOO... and raises again. How many times will we flop a set and a villian will take this line deep. Maybe 1% of the time?

Its not like its just a case of the PFR betting, us folding because we dont have quads.

Some people on this thread arent reading into the varying situations IMO in regards to playing hands, looking at absolute strength of hands rather then relative strength vs varying ranges...

That said, again, I would probably get some more money into this pot vs all unknowns and most villians at 2/3 local.

Man, all thos who say this is an easy fold of bottom set on this board are most likely losing a ton of value with some hands. I am not saying I love the shove, but if you don't lose a lot of $$ in set over set on this board, then you are losing value.

As others have said, I think I like a lead/3b here. And not a chance you should fold 22 pre with these stacks. Perhaps you can slow down with your set and re-evaluate on the turn, but a good villain could be raising your lead with a very wide range here so simply dumping to his raise is ludicrous IMO.

I think I would have led/3b or led and called to see a safe turn card and then led again. If he raises your turn lead after a balnk, then you might consider letting it go (he will hardly ever flat a turn lead with better than 22 since you could have a ton of draws, so you probably can fold in good consiceience with this line and save half your stack).

Anyway, whenever you get set over set it is a cooler and I think it would be very difficult to get away from this one unless you took the cautious line of lead/call flop, lead/fold turn.