V is new to table, quiet, younger guy, TAG in first 2 of 3 hands, no relevant info yet except that he 3bet once, fired flop, and showed AA when everyone folded.

Reg is same reg from my previous post (Ship NFD vs Reg?), so just to save time, he's super cally, married to TPBK.

The Hand:

V is sitting at about 100bb ($200) which is effective stack for main pot, but Reg and other weakish reg are at $300 and I cover all with about $500.

Weakish reg EP limps to Hero in HJ with 8h8d, opens to $8, CO calls, Reg OTB calls, SB folds, V 3bets out of BB to $20, weak-tight flats, Hero flats, Reg flats.

Flop: ($80) Ks Kh 8s

V leads $65. Weakish reg folds to me. Cally Reg with no idea of board texture still to act after me...

I intend on flatting and getting it in OTT on everything except the case K lol. Thoughts?

Not bad. Seems reasonable, giving the reg odds to ship or flat behind and collect more money.

Logical plan, nh.

Was the preflop raise to isolate or juice the pot? I don't mind attempting to isolate here versus only one limper because this might not go very multiway (so not a great setmining spot), but I'd would raise more to actually have a legitimate shot of isolating. If everyone behind me / blinds are loose, I'd also be cool with overlimping and pretty much setmining. Either/or, IMO.

I also call the 3bet knowing that we'll be going multiway to the flop and we'll have decent position.

I just call the flop. Obviously a raise will blow out reg behind us, so we're cool with him coming along virtually drawing dead in most cases with underpairs or having only 2-3 outs in other cases. Stacks are such that we'll easily be able to get them in on later streets. I would actually slowplay this until the end and not put in a raise. If V bets, I would just call. If V checks and Reg folded the turn, I would check the turn behind and get my value on the river. If V checks and Reg called the turn, I would bet a small amount on the turn to start getting Reg's chips.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, super easy flat here. Pray for a spade on turn and definitely get it in on the turn as a K is never folding and the pot will be so big that a flush draw can call as well.

Juice -- I raise most pp and mix in some sc's for 3.5-4bb raises in MP/EP. In LP, depending upon stack sizes I might make it more of a "standard" 1/2 open to 6bb so I can fire A/K-hi board textures.

I know it's 10% of ES, so a marginal or slightly -EV call against V, but more like 6-7% vs the other two 150bb effective stacks. So thanks for validation

I actually expected the Reg to raise a K in this spot always, and NFD like AQss, so I was flatting with the intent to get it in 3-ways OTF.

Second question:

HOWEVER, If Reg flats closing the action, I think V ships all turns, so I probably flat the turn again and allow Reg to come along, or just re-ship myself?

So I end up following the plan and flatting, reg folds

Turn: ($210) As

V checks with $115 behind, Hero...

I'd probably dump ~1/3 pot in here, hoping it looks weak.

Anyone else shoving this flop? I am.

If reg behind us has a K he is calling an all in, if he doesn't have a K he is folding for the OG bet. If V has a K he is calling all in. If we flat it looks suspicious. Shoving at least puts some doubt in his mind. I feel that flatting hoping that worse hands double barrel gets you the results you received in this hand.. a check from V. Just get it in OTF and let him level ("Why would he shove a K here? There is no way he can have a K.") V's also more likely to call an AI OTF with flush draws than the turn when it bricks.

cliffs: no one with trips is folding, FD's more willing to call OTF.

I actually didn't notice the flush draw, so this might make a difference (didn't realize a 3rd flush could kill action), although I probably still slowplay the flop. I've also lost track of V's remaining chips and how much more Reg has, but rethinking it due to flush draw on board, it probably is better to ship the turn in this case.

As played with the third flush card coming, V only has 1/2 PSB left. Could he call with QQ/JJ w/ draw? Ha, we're actually in kinda a sucky spot here as now there's a decent amount of normal 3betting combos that are ahead of us (10 combos of AA/KK/AK, versus say 18 QQ/JJ/TT), most of the ones that we're ahead of are probably unlikely to call a bet (with the exception of Kx hands, but really, how many Kx hands 3bet preflop OOP?), and yet with stacks I don't believe we'll be able to fold. I guess we shove to get value from funky QJs hands that made a flush / KQ-?

GconfusedontheturnG

I don't see why if I have a FD i'm MORE willing to call a $200 shove vs calling a $65 bet???

That doesn't make sense.

My logic is that if V has $200 behind he's more likely to call a $65 bet getting better than 3:1 on his money and also he can still go ahead and shove with his FD on the flop.

But in the case of the call, pot will now be $275 on the turn and V will have $135 behind so then if turn is a shove, now V is calling $135 for a potentially $540 pot which again is decent odds for a FD and fits in with the "well, pot's too big I have to call" adage...

To be clear, I don't think a flop shove is terrible by any stretch, but imo, a flat on flop just gives our V's a chance to make more incorrect plays. For instance, calling with pockets hoping to spike their card on turn, calling with the intent to steal because they don't believe we have a K (granted this is low probability), or even floating with something ******ed like AJ hoping to get an Ace or J because they don't believe we have anything...

+1, we collect our Sklansky Bux

Not sure where the numbers are coming from..

V has $200 to start the hand
Reg has $300 to start the hand

OTF V is down to $115 ($20 and then $65)
Reg is down to $280 ($20 and still to act)

If we shove OTF (or at least put V all in) we are giving him 2.82-1 on his money with two cards to come to hit a FD... as played we are giving him the same odds with only one card to come assuming we are putting him AI OTT.

Reg is super cally... he may just decide to come along also. If he has trips he is definitely coming along.

TBH, a hand like this is going down in a couple of ways. They have a K and are going to the felt.. they don't have K and are c/f the turn. I think when they don't have a K it makes the hand easier for them when we flat the flop. FD's gonna FD and it depends on the player whether they are coming along or not. Some people will chase a FD for huge amounts, so won't. I'd rather give the FD's two cards to come rather than one.

(Having trouble putting all of my thoughts into words right now so hopefully that make some sense.)

Grunch: I like it. Now to see why there is so much discussion...

Post grunch: What a yucky card OTT. Prob either drew out on us or killed our action. I check behind to try to generate a desperation bet OTR, because we are never folding, so let's try to keep V's range wide.

We're still have a mandatory call OTR given stack sizes and the fact that there aren't really any overfulls that we can put V on that he hasn't already made, so why not just ship the turn now?

The BOTTOM of V's range should be {JJ-QQ}. My flat OTF was mainly to keep the Reg in with a FD, but now that he's gone, there are so many action killers for both of us unless V holds Q/Js and a fourth spade comes (assuming we weight some portion of his range toward these pp, which I think is not terribly unlikely).

Because his calling range here is, imo, probably much narrower than his betting range if turn gets checked through, and if it's not, he has no draws, so his calling range of your shove OTR is prob exactly the same as on the turn, so waiting really has no opportunity cost.

Thanks all. Results for those interested:

You are correct sir. If we check behind it is still with the intent of getting it in OTR, imo.