1/2 backdoor flush comes in
05-08-2014
, 11:59 AM
hero (120$): 20's, TAG, havent played too many hands and have no been to showdown. Might look like I am making some moves post flop though.
villain (250$): 50's tight and somewhat passive, hasnt played many hands. Villain is SB
Hero dealt: A
10 UTG
hero limps, 5 folds, button limps, villain completes, bb checks
Flop (8$): JJ
10
2 checks, hero bets 5$, 1 fold, villain calls, 1 fold
Turn (18$): 2
villain checks, hero bets 10$, villain calls
river (38$): 7
villain bets 25$, hero...?
Preflop: I realize limping is probably terrible, this hand is like the bottom of my opening range in early position and the table hasnt been punishing limps very much.
Flop: Flopped a decent hand with the backdoor flush draw, I figure this bet is going to take down the small pot pretty often, or give me some idea if I am behind because I think trips are raising here?
Turn: pretty good card for me, If I am not ahead I still have decent equity. Sizing may be wrong but my thinking is this size keeps in his worse 10's, 8/9, Q/K, smaller PP possibly. and again I think trips would be raising here if they didnt on the flop?
river: Well I mean about as good a card as I could hope for and now the villain is leading into me. Is this just an easy jam since I am so short stacked? I think if he had something really strong we would normally hear about it before now? His river sizing makes me think he has a decent piece. Is there any thought to raising smaller? or even just flatting?
villain (250$): 50's tight and somewhat passive, hasnt played many hands. Villain is SB
Hero dealt: A
10 UTGhero limps, 5 folds, button limps, villain completes, bb checks
Flop (8$): J
J102 checks, hero bets 5$, 1 fold, villain calls, 1 fold
Turn (18$): 2
villain checks, hero bets 10$, villain calls
river (38$): 7
villain bets 25$, hero...?
Preflop: I realize limping is probably terrible, this hand is like the bottom of my opening range in early position and the table hasnt been punishing limps very much.
Flop: Flopped a decent hand with the backdoor flush draw, I figure this bet is going to take down the small pot pretty often, or give me some idea if I am behind because I think trips are raising here?
Turn: pretty good card for me, If I am not ahead I still have decent equity. Sizing may be wrong but my thinking is this size keeps in his worse 10's, 8/9, Q/K, smaller PP possibly. and again I think trips would be raising here if they didnt on the flop?
river: Well I mean about as good a card as I could hope for and now the villain is leading into me. Is this just an easy jam since I am so short stacked? I think if he had something really strong we would normally hear about it before now? His river sizing makes me think he has a decent piece. Is there any thought to raising smaller? or even just flatting?
Spoiler:
05-09-2014
, 10:56 AM
Quick comments.
Limping any A2s - AJs from EP in weak passive limpy limpy 1/2nl games is fine if you are at table that frequently lets limps go through. These hands are monsters because if you do make a flush you can easily play for stacks vs weaker flushes.
SB and BB ranges in limpy limpy pots are ATC. Remember that. Almost everyone puts in the extra $1 with 100% of their range from the SB because they think "Meh, I'm priced in".
Whenever there is a paired board on the flop and the action goes check check check bet.... and then the blinds call, warning sirens need to go off in your head. The blinds have trips like everytime in this spot.
Whenever a passive player leads out on a scary board, he is freaking nutted!!!! 100% nutted like a freaking Snickers bar. And this goes double for an OMC passive weak tight 1/2nl player.
What hand is he ever check/calling you with on the flop. You have the T so that rules out him sliding into a back door flush. Once he calls the flop and turn bet he 100% has a Jack. Since his range is ATC there is no such thing as a "safe" card for you.
Once he bets out on that freaking river, I would seriously consider folding. If I did call, its a crying call. And I'm never in a million years playing for stacks.
If there is one thing I've learned to respect over the years, its the fact that when passive passive weak tight OMC nitty McNitty nit check calls down and then bets into the aggressor on super scary rivers then he freaking has it. Whatever it is, however improbable it is for him to have it doesn't matter, he freaking has it, 99.999% of the freaking time. The only time he doesn't have it is when he somehow through some freak accident mis-reads his own hand.
You could almost make a blanket rule, when the above happens, you can just fold everything but the stone cold nuts and save yourself tons of money long term.
Oh, BTW, why the F are we betting the turn??? Seriously, check back that freaking turn and pray for a diamond. ONce he calls you on the flop, his range is exclusively Jx
Limping any A2s - AJs from EP in weak passive limpy limpy 1/2nl games is fine if you are at table that frequently lets limps go through. These hands are monsters because if you do make a flush you can easily play for stacks vs weaker flushes.
SB and BB ranges in limpy limpy pots are ATC. Remember that. Almost everyone puts in the extra $1 with 100% of their range from the SB because they think "Meh, I'm priced in".
Whenever there is a paired board on the flop and the action goes check check check bet.... and then the blinds call, warning sirens need to go off in your head. The blinds have trips like everytime in this spot.
Whenever a passive player leads out on a scary board, he is freaking nutted!!!! 100% nutted like a freaking Snickers bar. And this goes double for an OMC passive weak tight 1/2nl player.
What hand is he ever check/calling you with on the flop. You have the T
so that rules out him sliding into a back door flush. Once he calls the flop and turn bet he 100% has a Jack. Since his range is ATC there is no such thing as a "safe" card for you. Once he bets out on that freaking river, I would seriously consider folding. If I did call, its a crying call. And I'm never in a million years playing for stacks.
If there is one thing I've learned to respect over the years, its the fact that when passive passive weak tight OMC nitty McNitty nit check calls down and then bets into the aggressor on super scary rivers then he freaking has it. Whatever it is, however improbable it is for him to have it doesn't matter, he freaking has it, 99.999% of the freaking time. The only time he doesn't have it is when he somehow through some freak accident mis-reads his own hand.
You could almost make a blanket rule, when the above happens, you can just fold everything but the stone cold nuts and save yourself tons of money long term.
Oh, BTW, why the F are we betting the turn??? Seriously, check back that freaking turn and pray for a diamond. ONce he calls you on the flop, his range is exclusively Jx
05-09-2014
, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Quick comments.
Limping any A2s - AJs from EP in weak passive limpy limpy 1/2nl games is fine if you are at table that frequently lets limps go through. These hands are monsters because if you do make a flush you can easily play for stacks vs weaker flushes.
SB and BB ranges in limpy limpy pots are ATC. Remember that. Almost everyone puts in the extra $1 with 100% of their range from the SB because they think "Meh, I'm priced in".
Whenever there is a paired board on the flop and the action goes check check check bet.... and then the blinds call, warning sirens need to go off in your head. The blinds have trips like everytime in this spot.
Whenever a passive player leads out on a scary board, he is freaking nutted!!!! 100% nutted like a freaking Snickers bar. And this goes double for an OMC passive weak tight 1/2nl player.
What hand is he ever check/calling you with on the flop. You have the T so that rules out him sliding into a back door flush. Once he calls the flop and turn bet he 100% has a Jack. Since his range is ATC there is no such thing as a "safe" card for you.
Once he bets out on that freaking river, I would seriously consider folding. If I did call, its a crying call. And I'm never in a million years playing for stacks.
If there is one thing I've learned to respect over the years, its the fact that when passive passive weak tight OMC nitty McNitty nit check calls down and then bets into the aggressor on super scary rivers then he freaking has it. Whatever it is, however improbable it is for him to have it doesn't matter, he freaking has it, 99.999% of the freaking time. The only time he doesn't have it is when he somehow through some freak accident mis-reads his own hand.
You could almost make a blanket rule, when the above happens, you can just fold everything but the stone cold nuts and save yourself tons of money long term.
Oh, BTW, why the F are we betting the turn??? Seriously, check back that freaking turn and pray for a diamond. ONce he calls you on the flop, his range is exclusively Jx
Limping any A2s - AJs from EP in weak passive limpy limpy 1/2nl games is fine if you are at table that frequently lets limps go through. These hands are monsters because if you do make a flush you can easily play for stacks vs weaker flushes.
SB and BB ranges in limpy limpy pots are ATC. Remember that. Almost everyone puts in the extra $1 with 100% of their range from the SB because they think "Meh, I'm priced in".
Whenever there is a paired board on the flop and the action goes check check check bet.... and then the blinds call, warning sirens need to go off in your head. The blinds have trips like everytime in this spot.
Whenever a passive player leads out on a scary board, he is freaking nutted!!!! 100% nutted like a freaking Snickers bar. And this goes double for an OMC passive weak tight 1/2nl player.
What hand is he ever check/calling you with on the flop. You have the T
so that rules out him sliding into a back door flush. Once he calls the flop and turn bet he 100% has a Jack. Since his range is ATC there is no such thing as a "safe" card for you. Once he bets out on that freaking river, I would seriously consider folding. If I did call, its a crying call. And I'm never in a million years playing for stacks.
If there is one thing I've learned to respect over the years, its the fact that when passive passive weak tight OMC nitty McNitty nit check calls down and then bets into the aggressor on super scary rivers then he freaking has it. Whatever it is, however improbable it is for him to have it doesn't matter, he freaking has it, 99.999% of the freaking time. The only time he doesn't have it is when he somehow through some freak accident mis-reads his own hand.
You could almost make a blanket rule, when the above happens, you can just fold everything but the stone cold nuts and save yourself tons of money long term.
Oh, BTW, why the F are we betting the turn??? Seriously, check back that freaking turn and pray for a diamond. ONce he calls you on the flop, his range is exclusively Jx
I appreciate all the input, just trying to improve my play/thought process at the table.
and also Thanks DGI, I've read a bunch of your longer posts and they are all awesome and really appreciated you commenting on smaller threads like this. you're the man.
05-09-2014
, 12:00 PM
05-09-2014
, 01:27 PM
My thoughts on his range at that time was something like: boats, trips, worse flushes, missed draws (8/9, QK, Q9)... the flush was backdoor so I dont think he particularly put me on diamonds. After reading alot of the responses I should have narrowed his range down quite a bit because of the type of player he is
05-10-2014
, 07:22 AM
One of the things I think that holds back many thinking players and 2+2ers is this reluctance to adjust our thinking and reads based on player types.
Too often I will see someone write a description that says, "Villain is in his 50s, tight and somewhat passive, I haven't seen him play many hands. He is in the SB."
So that is the description, basically a passive OMC playing ATC from the SB because it's his small blind.
But then, when we need to make decisions, all of a sudden we believe that a tight passive OMC is now going to chase straights and back door flushes on a flopped paired board hoping to go runner runner and then bet into us on river with his non-nut, backdoor runner runner flush or straight on a paired board that Hero has bet every street on??? Or even worse, that OMC has missed his draw and is now bluffing into us????
Wow? So that is how your tight passive OMC's play huh?
I see so-called thinking players over think these spots all the time letting their own biases influence how they think villain can/will play this hand.
Tight passive OMCs just don't have it in their playbook to chase runner runner non-nut flushes on paired boards out of the small blind and then to bet into the player who has bet every single street and this goes double for thinking that this player is capable of bluffing a whiffed draw.
To me, that would be akin to a rabbit chasing a wolf. It just doesn't happen. And you are leveling yourself if you can somehow convince yourself that it does and furthermore if you can somehow convince yourself that this river is a shove and that OMC is calling your shove with a straight or backdoor flush.
If by some miracle OMC did show up here with a straight or flush, he is just going to c/c it. That is what tight passive players do. They check call. Only reason he is leading out is because he is afraid of not getting paid something. And truth be told, his lead out surprises me because normally they go for the c/r on the river.
But that is less surprising to me than him donk betting a runner runner draw into us come river.
If V does not have the near nuts here (i.e. boat) then our description is off.
You guys seriously need to understand the difference between aggressive and passive and tight and loose and OMC vs hoodie wearing hipsters.
Stop leveling yourself against these types of passive tight players.
Or put another way, if you honestly feel this OMC can show up here with inferior hands and then aggressively lead out into us on the river or bluff us on a whiffed draw, then I wonder how the hell you think "aggressive" players play if you labeled this guy as tight/passive.
Serious question.
Too often I will see someone write a description that says, "Villain is in his 50s, tight and somewhat passive, I haven't seen him play many hands. He is in the SB."
So that is the description, basically a passive OMC playing ATC from the SB because it's his small blind.
But then, when we need to make decisions, all of a sudden we believe that a tight passive OMC is now going to chase straights and back door flushes on a flopped paired board hoping to go runner runner and then bet into us on river with his non-nut, backdoor runner runner flush or straight on a paired board that Hero has bet every street on??? Or even worse, that OMC has missed his draw and is now bluffing into us????
Wow? So that is how your tight passive OMC's play huh?
I see so-called thinking players over think these spots all the time letting their own biases influence how they think villain can/will play this hand.
Tight passive OMCs just don't have it in their playbook to chase runner runner non-nut flushes on paired boards out of the small blind and then to bet into the player who has bet every single street and this goes double for thinking that this player is capable of bluffing a whiffed draw.
To me, that would be akin to a rabbit chasing a wolf. It just doesn't happen. And you are leveling yourself if you can somehow convince yourself that it does and furthermore if you can somehow convince yourself that this river is a shove and that OMC is calling your shove with a straight or backdoor flush.
If by some miracle OMC did show up here with a straight or flush, he is just going to c/c it. That is what tight passive players do. They check call. Only reason he is leading out is because he is afraid of not getting paid something. And truth be told, his lead out surprises me because normally they go for the c/r on the river.
But that is less surprising to me than him donk betting a runner runner draw into us come river.
If V does not have the near nuts here (i.e. boat) then our description is off.
You guys seriously need to understand the difference between aggressive and passive and tight and loose and OMC vs hoodie wearing hipsters.
Stop leveling yourself against these types of passive tight players.
Or put another way, if you honestly feel this OMC can show up here with inferior hands and then aggressively lead out into us on the river or bluff us on a whiffed draw, then I wonder how the hell you think "aggressive" players play if you labeled this guy as tight/passive.
Serious question.
05-12-2014
, 01:30 PM
Quote:
One of the things I think that holds back many thinking players and 2+2ers is this reluctance to adjust our thinking and reads based on player types.
Too often I will see someone write a description that says, "Villain is in his 50s, tight and somewhat passive, I haven't seen him play many hands. He is in the SB."
So that is the description, basically a passive OMC playing ATC from the SB because it's his small blind.
But then, when we need to make decisions, all of a sudden we believe that a tight passive OMC is now going to chase straights and back door flushes on a flopped paired board hoping to go runner runner and then bet into us on river with his non-nut, backdoor runner runner flush or straight on a paired board that Hero has bet every street on??? Or even worse, that OMC has missed his draw and is now bluffing into us????
Wow? So that is how your tight passive OMC's play huh?
I see so-called thinking players over think these spots all the time letting their own biases influence how they think villain can/will play this hand.
Tight passive OMCs just don't have it in their playbook to chase runner runner non-nut flushes on paired boards out of the small blind and then to bet into the player who has bet every single street and this goes double for thinking that this player is capable of bluffing a whiffed draw.
To me, that would be akin to a rabbit chasing a wolf. It just doesn't happen. And you are leveling yourself if you can somehow convince yourself that it does and furthermore if you can somehow convince yourself that this river is a shove and that OMC is calling your shove with a straight or backdoor flush.
If by some miracle OMC did show up here with a straight or flush, he is just going to c/c it. That is what tight passive players do. They check call. Only reason he is leading out is because he is afraid of not getting paid something. And truth be told, his lead out surprises me because normally they go for the c/r on the river.
But that is less surprising to me than him donk betting a runner runner draw into us come river.
If V does not have the near nuts here (i.e. boat) then our description is off.
You guys seriously need to understand the difference between aggressive and passive and tight and loose and OMC vs hoodie wearing hipsters.
Stop leveling yourself against these types of passive tight players.
Or put another way, if you honestly feel this OMC can show up here with inferior hands and then aggressively lead out into us on the river or bluff us on a whiffed draw, then I wonder how the hell you think "aggressive" players play if you labeled this guy as tight/passive.
Serious question.
Too often I will see someone write a description that says, "Villain is in his 50s, tight and somewhat passive, I haven't seen him play many hands. He is in the SB."
So that is the description, basically a passive OMC playing ATC from the SB because it's his small blind.
But then, when we need to make decisions, all of a sudden we believe that a tight passive OMC is now going to chase straights and back door flushes on a flopped paired board hoping to go runner runner and then bet into us on river with his non-nut, backdoor runner runner flush or straight on a paired board that Hero has bet every street on??? Or even worse, that OMC has missed his draw and is now bluffing into us????
Wow? So that is how your tight passive OMC's play huh?
I see so-called thinking players over think these spots all the time letting their own biases influence how they think villain can/will play this hand.
Tight passive OMCs just don't have it in their playbook to chase runner runner non-nut flushes on paired boards out of the small blind and then to bet into the player who has bet every single street and this goes double for thinking that this player is capable of bluffing a whiffed draw.
To me, that would be akin to a rabbit chasing a wolf. It just doesn't happen. And you are leveling yourself if you can somehow convince yourself that it does and furthermore if you can somehow convince yourself that this river is a shove and that OMC is calling your shove with a straight or backdoor flush.
If by some miracle OMC did show up here with a straight or flush, he is just going to c/c it. That is what tight passive players do. They check call. Only reason he is leading out is because he is afraid of not getting paid something. And truth be told, his lead out surprises me because normally they go for the c/r on the river.
But that is less surprising to me than him donk betting a runner runner draw into us come river.
If V does not have the near nuts here (i.e. boat) then our description is off.
You guys seriously need to understand the difference between aggressive and passive and tight and loose and OMC vs hoodie wearing hipsters.
Stop leveling yourself against these types of passive tight players.
Or put another way, if you honestly feel this OMC can show up here with inferior hands and then aggressively lead out into us on the river or bluff us on a whiffed draw, then I wonder how the hell you think "aggressive" players play if you labeled this guy as tight/passive.
Serious question.
