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1/2 ATs line check 1/2 ATs line check

02-18-2015 , 11:44 AM
This is a hand I feel I played fine, but wonder if others would have played it differently.

My image right now is tight/weak (or at least it should be, I was feeling like my play was pretty weak, though on the other hand there are a bunch of calling stations at the table, and I'm just not double barreling them, or sometimes even c-betting), I have not been having a great session, been mostly card dead, but recently doubled up getting it in preflop with KK, and then lost 50$ getting it in preflop with 88 against a short stack with a very wide range. My stack is currently around 300$

V1 is tight passive, stack of around 120$, if he is betting or raising post flop he has a strong hand and isn't too difficult to read. Limping too much pre.
V2 (~200$) has been at the table for about 2 hours, and he's tricky for me because I haven't figured out just how good he is. He's a white guy in his 30s/40s, very thin and kind of creepy looking at a glance, and with a weird, youthful, mischievous vibe. He's a bit loose, aggressive, is usually showing down strong hands, but also occasionally showing bluffs (he is always showing his hands, so idk). There was one hand where he called down two streets with pocket 4's OOP on a K J 8 T x board against a bad nitty player who was suffering from a sense of entitlement and was having a bad night. His 4's were good, and I have no idea how he was sure this guy was bluffing, because he generally knows when he's beat and will fold. He understand the relative value of his hand.

So, a few limpers to me in the cutoff with ATs, I raise to 12, get called by V1 in EP and V2 in MP.

Flop (~40) comes 8 T x rb
Checks to me, I bet 25. I now realize that I would have preferred to bet 30-35; at the time I disregarded the blind and considered the pot as 36$, but it made no difference really. V1 folds, V2 calls.

Turn (~90) 8 T x J no flush draws
V2 checks to me, I check behind with the intention of calling pretty much any river. If he has a J I'll lose, if he doesn't I expect him to bluff (Several hands I've c-bet, checked turn, folded river, hence my feeling of a weak image). If I bet the turn I just think it's very unlikely I'll get called by worse. If he checks the river I'll be surprised and will probably bet/fold.

The river bricks, he bets 30, I snap call.

As an afterthought, I haven't been paying enough attention in general to villains' bet sizing, partially because unless they are obviously solid players, I have no idea what they're thinking when deciding how much to bet, but this is really a different thread.

Last edited by Kler; 02-18-2015 at 11:51 AM.
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02-18-2015 , 12:07 PM
I would have bet ott. You're still getting called by KT/QT/8x. And turned straights or 2pair will c/r. So I'm not betting to see where I'm at, but the b/f works well because worse check/calls and better (once he checks) is check/raising. As played, otr, is he really taking a stab just because you showed weakness ott? I usually slow down ott if the turn helped me, say the turn was an A, I'd check back, expecting most of V's range to be shutting down ott if I fired again, so I'd check it back, make it look like I don't like the A either, then otr V will call a bet and I'd get 2 streets of value. I don't like checking ott when the J hits.
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02-18-2015 , 12:32 PM
I actually like it, although I agree $30 - $35 would be better on flop. The turn check is fine as long as you are calling blank rivers.
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02-18-2015 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
I would have bet ott. You're still getting called by KT/QT/8x. And turned straights or 2pair will c/r. So I'm not betting to see where I'm at, but the b/f works well because worse check/calls and better (once he checks) is check/raising. As played, otr, is he really taking a stab just because you showed weakness ott? I usually slow down ott if the turn helped me, say the turn was an A, I'd check back, expecting most of V's range to be shutting down ott if I fired again, so I'd check it back, make it look like I don't like the A either, then otr V will call a bet and I'd get 2 streets of value. I don't like checking ott when the J hits.
I really like this, though honestly, I tend to play too weak, a lot of the time, and this table was one of them. Partially because I'm just not that confident in my reads on villains, in following and keeping track of all of the information at the table, sorting out what will be most useful to me in the future and etc. Against very aggressive villains I've been able to use this to my advantage, at least, by c-betting, checking behind and calling a river bluff with a marginal hand.

In this situation, consecutive flop and turn bets would be showing a lot of strength from me, and I don't think this villain is calling with KT or worse. Nonetheless, this post was really helpful by tacitly pointing out a fundamental problem with my game.
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02-18-2015 , 02:15 PM
Depending on the read, this spot could be pretty close whether we choose to bet turn.

If V is loose and stationy, he could easily call flop with a wide range of bluff catchers and draws.

If he's somewhat aggressive, it would seem more profitable to let him bet river than force him to continue with a narrow range against double barrel.

If he's passive, I would probably go with small barrels and just target his entire range of bluff catchers and draws.

Last edited by Shell Gas; 02-18-2015 at 02:21 PM.
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02-18-2015 , 02:41 PM
I like the turn check, and would call river or bet the river if checked to. If he had KT or QT (not sure if he'd limp/call KT pf), I think he'd more likely call with that on river than turn. JT I could see him having, and I think you played optimally against that (same with T8 or J9). I don't see him calling turn bet with 8x (besides 98) given your image.
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02-18-2015 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
I would have bet ott. You're still getting called by KT/QT/8x. And turned straights or 2pair will c/r. So I'm not betting to see where I'm at, but the b/f works well because worse check/calls and better (once he checks) is check/raising. As played, otr, is he really taking a stab just because you showed weakness ott? I usually slow down ott if the turn helped me, say the turn was an A, I'd check back, expecting most of V's range to be shutting down ott if I fired again, so I'd check it back, make it look like I don't like the A either, then otr V will call a bet and I'd get 2 streets of value. I don't like checking ott when the J hits.
I really like this, though honestly, I tend to play too weak, a lot of the time, and this table was one of them. Partially because I'm just not that confident in my reads on villains, in following and keeping track of all of the information at the table, sorting out what will be most useful to me in the future and etc. Against very aggressive villains I've been able to use this to my advantage, at least, by c-betting, checking behind and calling a river bluff with a marginal hand.

In this situation, consecutive flop and turn bets would be showing a lot of strength from me, and I don't think this villain is calling with KT or worse. Nonetheless, this post was really helpful by tacitly pointing out a fundamental problem with my game.
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02-18-2015 , 02:52 PM
Deja vu?
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02-18-2015 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shell Gas
Deja vu?
No idea how that got reposted, especially like an hour later?
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02-18-2015 , 04:08 PM
I don't think we are ever good on the river. If he has anything less than Jx, I'd imagine he'd check river. Plus the J pairs up his straight draws/could complete the straight.
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02-18-2015 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
I would have bet ott. You're still getting called by KT/QT/8x. And turned straights or 2pair will c/r. So I'm not betting to see where I'm at, but the b/f works well because worse check/calls and better (once he checks) is check/raising. As played, otr, is he really taking a stab just because you showed weakness ott? I usually slow down ott if the turn helped me, say the turn was an A, I'd check back, expecting most of V's range to be shutting down ott if I fired again, so I'd check it back, make it look like I don't like the A either, then otr V will call a bet and I'd get 2 streets of value. I don't like checking ott when the J hits.
+1. Deff bet the turn, intending to showdown river unless an A or T hits. You could also think about bluffing if the river comes a 9, depending on your opponent.
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02-18-2015 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddyrowe9
I don't think we are ever good on the river. If he has anything less than Jx, I'd imagine he'd check river. Plus the J pairs up his straight draws/could complete the straight.
So if he's betting after H checked turn, he could only be value betting with no less than TP?
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02-18-2015 , 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shell Gas
So if he's betting after H checked turn, he could only be value betting with no less than TP?
We are getting 4:1, so base it on that. Is he thin value betting enough of the time to warrant a call? Maybe, but I think it's really opponent dependent, and kind of hard to give an opinion without observing him during the session and just reading the description given.

I'd feel more comfortable making the call if he had like any missed draws in his range, but it's hard to conjure up any really.

bet/folding turn though >>> planning to snap call all blank rivers though
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02-18-2015 , 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shell Gas
Depending on the read, this spot could be pretty close whether we choose to bet turn.

If V is loose and stationy, he could easily call flop with a wide range of bluff catchers and draws.
There's two draws on the flop: 97 and J9. Both of them hit on the turn. If we think Villain was on a draw then I don't know why we would bet the turn. If Villain has a bluff catcher he probably won't continue calling. It seems like your both your reasons, are reasons not to bet.
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02-18-2015 , 11:10 PM
Against described villain, I play it the same, although I may be weak as well.

If he's loose/passive/straightforward, I would bet the turn and happily fold to a c/r, but that J is not a good card for us, he KNOWS it's likely not a good card for us, and I don't want to get c/r off a better hand with QT/T9/T7/98/87.
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